I felt more at ease with, you know, the young guy who I was becoming. Kind of the culmination of this that I talk about in a lot of different spaces because I view it as like a defining moment in my life is I was selected as our student commencement speaker and I was in front of a couple thousand people and I basically told folks about my autism and they didn't know it. I kept it very tight to the vest. Frollo says to him and trying to keep him up there and not go out there, he says, oh my dear Quasimodo, you don't know what it's like out there. I do.

Quasimodo is kind of the archetype of someone who feels like an outsider, who feels, I think, some degree of shame for being different and fear of being treated poorly by others. People didn't know and not even back then in that context, realize the amount of stress that I carried with me in trying to show up in spaces where I looked like I had a lot of it together, I was just filled with anxiety and uncertainty. You can do a lot more than you believe. You just need to be around people who foster that sentiment and environment of building on strengths. And I think that's something that we all can embrace.

Welcome to Yes And Land, where we say yes to the reality of yesterday and today, and we say and to the possibility, growth, and imagination of tomorrow. All right, welcome everybody to our next episode of Yes And Land. Very excited for our guest today who comes to us all the way from the University of Pittsburgh, right? Is that right, Brett? Yeah.

All the way out there in Pittsburgh and we're located here in Utah. So we are very excited to get somebody on the other side of the country who has a lot of expertise, got a lot of knowledge, does some really great things. Some of the research that he does and some of the teaching he does. Professor over there at Pitt in the School of Education, if I'm not mistaken, is that correct? So very excited about what he's going to bring today because we're going to be talking about a really great Disney movie, The Hunchback of Notre Dame.

It's a movie that, for me personally as a kid, I didn't quite connect with as much as when I've rewatched it as an adult for some of the really important themes that there are in those that maybe you're marginalized. And that's going to be our topic today is talking about people who tend to be more marginalized and how we can do a better job of finding ways to educate, to present to, to include those that might be on the fringes, those that might be marginalized for being different in any variety of ways. So very excited for the conversation today and where that's going to take us. So welcome to the program. Yeah, Ryan, thanks for having me.

Glad to be here. What would you add to that biography of you, of the things that you're doing professionally? Yeah, no, I'm an assistant professor at the University of Pittsburgh. So my field, as I described to people, is very meta. So I'm in the field of higher education.

So basically, I work with graduate students as we talk about issues facing academia and setting these students up for ascending in their careers or building their careers in higher education. So to be administrators, student affairs practitioners, researchers, faculty, policymakers, and the like. So it's a very reflective field where we look at ourselves and look at the spaces we're a part of and try to make it better in terms of inclusivity and equity and a bunch of other issues and considerations too. So yeah, I've been here for the past two years and I've been a faculty member for the past four and yeah, I'm glad to be building my own career here. Yeah, I love it.

And you know, one thing I didn't mention, I can't believe I didn't mention because it's very, very important, which is Brett is, I mean, really, he's a fellow Disney nerd, Disney adult, and he has a long running Disney related podcast called Notably Disney, which is just phenomenal where he takes a look at all things Disney music and Disney books. So anything that you can hear or read, he's been doing that for how many years now, Brett? We're going on close to eight. Close to eight years. And if I'm not mistaken, it's twice a month, right?

Episodes that are twice a month. For a while it was twice a month. This year pivoted to once a month, but nonetheless, a huge catalog of probably well over 150 episodes, maybe 180 or so. Holy moly. Brett, that is a ton.

And you know, anybody that is wanting to connect more with Disney stuff and get something that there's not other podcasts like Brett's podcast is definitely that way. It's really fun to hear him talk about and break down. For me, I really enjoy the music conversations when they're talking about music stuff, but also there's just tons of really great books that are related to Disney stuff. So his podcast is really great. And it's actually how I found him in the first place and really excited that we did because we want to dive into some interesting discussions today with his background in academia, some of the knowledge that he has and ways that he's going to break that down.

So let's take it like way back, Brett. So take me back to like young Brett, where did you grow up? What was life like for you? And maybe a little bit from that perspective of maybe ways that you might've felt a little bit marginalized when you were growing up. Yeah, absolutely.

I grew up in Scottsdale, Arizona. So in the Phoenix metro area in the 90s and into the 2000s. And yeah, I think I grew up during a really great time in terms of Disney content, because this was the time of the Disney Renaissance. So many of the great animated films that so many of us love and carry with us today were released around this time. And I had the opportunity at a young age to go to the Disney theme parks, Disneyland in 96 when I was four and then Walt Disney World at age seven and 99.

And I was just a complete Disney consumer. All my merch was Disney. I had tons of Toy Story in my bedroom. That was my was and probably still is my favorite Disney, Disney Pixar film. And I was probably just very enchanted by all the artistry and magic of it all as someone who had a wildly imaginative mind myself.

I was constantly creating things, whether it be I love drawing maps. And in particular, once I started going to the Disney theme parks, I would draw my own maps of Disney theme parks in my own mind and thinking, hey, they should redesign tomorrow and it should look like this. And I'm no artist, but I definitely enjoyed that. And I was constantly consuming Disney Channel and movies. You've got some translate to that part.

Also, I love to write and that's now manifested in a wide variety of ways. But yeah, I had a lot of passion for Disney. It was my what do you call like a hyper interest. I was very obsessed with it. It still presents in different ways if you look at my background.

So this is my book collection and some knickknacks and tchotchkes. But Disney was an escape for me. I think it is for a lot of people. It affords a sense of exploration into different worlds and different experiences. And for me, I think as I got older, it became clear why Disney was so important for me.

And I think a big part of it was just being able to resonate with a lot of the characters and stories. And I know we're going to be talking about the Hunchback of Notre Dame to some extent today. But for me, when I was younger, I was in many ways a lot different from my peers. At the time, it was probably harder to define or operationalize what it was. But when I was eight, I was diagnosed with Asperger's, which today would fall under the autism umbrella or label.

And very apparently so in terms of the ways in which I communicated. I didn't start talking until I was about three. So delayed speech there. But I was also reading and writing around the same time. So there were some elements of my learning that were perhaps a bit more enhanced.

Additionally, my... Is that pretty common, Brett, for anybody listening? Like if somebody has a child that has autism or other people, is it pretty common to have certain things that might be delayed but other things it ends up being a little bit more enhanced because of that? I've kind of heard that, but I don't know if that's supported by research. Brett Nachman Absolutely.

Yeah, we can look at autism as a developmental disability. So certain developmental processes come at different times and in different ways. And that's kind of an example of that. There's also a lot of characteristics associated with autism that in many ways society would view as more unacceptable or not as welcomed that I showed signs of. So when I was very young, I would have tantrums.

I would get super overstimulated or overwhelmed in crowds and loud spaces. I would have a variety of different sensitivities and challenges at times in communication, reading nonverbal communication, expressing my own ideas and thoughts. So these are just a handful of the characteristics associated with autism that sometimes are painted with kind of a negative light. On the flip side, some characteristics associated with autism that are more positive or considered strains, I also demonstrated extremely detail-oriented, organized, responsible. And I would say the creativity is also sometimes manifesting uniquely with autistic folks.

And I guess to some extent, I demonstrated that. So diagnosed at age eight, and I think it was kind of a transformative period in the sense that we could now define why I was different, but then it's like, okay, well, what now? And when I was a child, I went through a variety of different therapies to account for the ways in which I was different or needed additional supports. I had a lot of challenges with reading comprehension, so I worked on that. Also, some different therapies related to mobility and balance, which is not too unfamiliar or rare in the autism community to need some degree of occupational or physical therapy, some speech therapy.

And ultimately, amidst all this, Disney was a real place of comfort because I'm trying to make sense of myself and my differences compared to my peers and how I showed up. And there are other forms of marginalization that I experienced and experienced. And Disney was an outlet to feel like, you know what, I feel at ease, I feel comforted. The parks always felt like safe environments for me when a lot of things in the world felt just very overwhelming in nature. So that's kind of sum up that period of time.

Were there any specific ways in which during those years when you realized that that's a little bit different about you and you're getting some help to do it, were there any particular ways where you really did feel marginalized by your peers, by the people around you who treated you differently or made your life a little harder? Yeah. I mean, there were definitely a lot of social challenges that I faced in my kind of elementary school years in terms of communicating with others and understanding whether it be social norms or different situations. And actually that translated to right around the time when I was wrapping up my elementary school years, my mom had just completed an online master's degree. And this was in the early days of online education.

And she was kind of experiencing like a bit of a career change and lots of challenges, again, with my education and making sense of my autism. And we as a family decided, let's see about being homeschooled as a way to really hone in on the things that I was strong at and also make sense of and work on the things that I struggled with in many ways connected to the autism and social situations and stuff like that. So in my middle and high school years, I was homeschooled and homeschooling sometimes has a mixed reputation and interpretation depending on how people frame it. I had a lot of structure and took all the common courses that one would. And then in tandem focused on some things that were reflective of my strengths.

We invested a lot of time into reading and writing so that I would feel more adept on that front. But in the same period, I was a teenager and going through the changes that come with that. And because of a lot of the social anxieties that I had, quite honestly, I kept myself isolated from peers in middle and high school because I was fearful of rejection and stereotyping and a lot of things. And then I know later we'll talk later in my life, but when I started community college at 17, that was kind of like a huge transformative period in terms of me putting myself out there and ultimately redefining what my life could and would be like. Not everywhere can be the happiest place on earth.

And at RCG Law Group, my job outside of our podcast, we get that. Life throws curveballs, legal stuff, family stuff, the things you didn't see coming. That's what we're here for. If you're dealing with something and don't know where to turn, give RCG a call. When you're going through that a bit and your family hopes to make this decision with you about doing the homeschooling and you're getting some additional help or things, what did you feel like that the help that you got did right?

And where do you feel like it was maybe bit lacking back then in the late 90s, early 2000s? Yeah, I mean, I think all the support that I got primarily from my mom and occasionally through some therapies and different things, everything was appropriate for me and right. And I think a lot of that came from because my parents are very thoughtful and informed individuals who explored things and wanting to make sure that I would be supported. For those who aren't necessarily in the disability space that I'm in, both in terms of my lived identities and some of my research, this is also a time when there's kind of a shift and to some degree where a lot related to disability and autism and everything under that umbrella is often medicalized and looked at as like, how do we treat this or how do we fix this, right? Which could be almost like translating to like that someone has an illness or something that needs to be changed.

Whereas in the past couple of decades, we've seen more of a shift to more of like a social justice, social model where we're thinking of like, you know, society has its issues and society is not always understanding of and supportive of folks who are disabled. So how do we make adjustments in our own ways to account for the differences among folks who are disabled or in my case autism? So for me, I think I got a lot of the right supports because of the family that I came from and the space that I was a part of. I grew up in a metropolitan area, you know, middle-class family with, you know, familiarity with issues around disability and supports along those lines. So I think I was very well positioned and then my mom was in a position to homeschool me and her background was, you know, she didn't have a formal background in education, but the nature of her past work was related to supporting folks with different health and educational considerations.

So ultimately, I had a lot of privileges and a lot of support going in. But my narrative is not necessarily representative of everyone and also to a lot of folks who are autistic. We see a lot of common representations being, you know, folks who are white, male, middle-class, which I am. And so in that sense, what I've tried to do in talking about my story and also in the research I do around autism is kind of reinforcing this notion that autism and other disabilities affect whole wide range of communities and not just folks who are commonly depicted in certain media. Yeah.

So in doing my research kind of preparation for this, I came across a number of different materials and things that really stuck out. And this is your field. And so please, please correct me if I get anything wrong in this, but somebody that came across is by the name of Temple Grandin. And I just a quote that I really liked and some ideas that it looked like she had that just really actually helped shift my perspective. I want to kind of get your take on one of the things that I wrote down that she said about this specifically, because she apparently is autistic herself.

She said, I am different, not less, which I think really goes in line with what you're saying. Right. And then one of the things that I took out of some of stuff she had too is she was trying to change the conversation from autism as a deficit towards autism as a different valuable way of processing the world, which I also just thought was really interesting that I hadn't looked at it from that perspective before. Kind of want to get your take on that and maybe some of the things that she's done or research that you've seen specifically on that. Yeah, no.

And I think there's a lot of transferable qualities that she puts forward there. She's kind of, I think in many ways, the face of autism because of the amount of good work that she's accomplished on a variety of fronts. And she's depicted by Claire Danes in a really popular biopic about 15, 20 years ago now. And there are more notable autistic folks who have, I think, surfaced in recent years too. But I think the notion of not deficit, but different is a great way of looking at it.

Right? Who's ultimately carrying out those interpretations and notions of what's considered okay? It's generally folks who aren't autistic or aren't disabled and can establish what those norms are. I'm definitely a proponent of this notion of, in the autism community, it's called the double empathy problem. It's this notion of let's try to meet each other halfway.

Autistic folks sometimes have to adapt to what the norm is, but the norm should also try to adapt to what the autistic person needs. And not all autistic people are the same, and much like any other marginalized community or group. So I'm definitely a fan of the notion of that. Everybody has their differences and everybody has their challenges based on what either they have themselves or how society engages with them or views them. We need to work toward a society where we can be more understanding and empathetic and including folks.

Aaron Norris Yeah. Did you call that double empathy? Is that what you called it? Michael S. So the double empathy problem, yeah, is more accomplished folks than me who are more kind of looking at autism as a disability and their work have worked extensively in describing us.

But it's this notion of that there's adaptations that we should all be engaging in to try to engage in some degree of perspective taking. Aaron Norris Yeah. Yeah, I really like that. Yeah, I'd never heard that before. And I love that.

So here's where I want to go from here, because there's more about your story and as it's evolved and developed over time, I want to pull it. I want to do it as we start working through kind of the arc of the hunchback of Notre Dame. And so if there's anybody out there listening to a Disney related podcast who hasn't watched the hunchback of Notre Dame, if they haven't, would you give us Brett a brief kind of 30,000 foot view of the tale, the story of the hunchback of Notre Dame, and then we can really start diving into the arc of the movie? Brett Larkin Gosh, yeah, I don't feel like I'm going to do it justice. You've watched it more recently than me, we discussed.

But it is a favorite of mine. So this is based on the Victor Hugo novel from many centuries ago. And as at least in the Disney version, what we have is it's set in Paris and it focuses on Klausimoto, who's this at the beginning of the film, he's this physically disabled baby, who is essentially through a very problematic opening. It's a very disturbing opening where very much so. His mother is a gypsy and essentially dies and Frollo, who's this judge and figure in medieval Paris, essentially takes Klausimoto and locks him in Métrodome and bell tower basically because there's embarrassment over what he looks like and thinking that he needs to be shunned from everybody.

And at least in the film, it's implied that Klausimoto is a teenager, or a very young adult who is tired of this life that he's been living where he's locked away and longs to be out there among the village people. And through a series of different experiences comes to befriend Esmeralda, who's a gypsy and outcast like himself, and Phoebus, who's this kind of dashing soldier who ultimately falls in love with Esmeralda alongside Klausimoto. So we have a little love triangle of sorts going on. And it's this notion of folks trying to escape persecution and disrupt Frollo's wield over them and aspects of society. And it's a beautiful story of resilience and understanding and teamwork to some degree.

So it's a forgotten film in some ways in the lineage of Disney animated films of that era, but I think there's also been a generation of people like myself who grew up on it and find deep meaning and value in the storytelling and the themes. And we can take it from there. Aaron Norris Yeah. Well said. I think that was a great description of the overarching story there.

And so as we kind of roll back to the beginning, we kind of take a look at the beginning of this film after the problematic opening, right? Where Frollo actually was going to kill Klausimoto, he was going to throw him into a well. Decided not to because the priest, I think, there at Notre Dame. And so at this thing when the Feast of Fools is going to be going on and Bell Tower celebrates it with the gargoyles every year and they're trying to convince him that he should go down and Frollo says to him and trying to keep him up there and not go out there, he says, Oh, my dear Klausimoto, you don't know what it's like out there. I do.

I do. And what we're starting to see with that is kind of Frollo's role in really keeping Klausimoto down and marginalizing him. Let me get your kind of take on that of kind of what the role of Frollo is and what that is like for people who are marginalized today in the Frollo's in our lives. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, he's a character who represents a lot of emotional manipulation, gaslighting, and all the problematic things. And, you know, there's so many different examples of that in modern day and in society. And you mentioned this notion of Frollo's in our lives. Like, you know, a lot of people, unfortunately, by virtue of where they are in circumstance, like sometimes are around folks who are demeaning and condescending and diminish someone's worth. And until you sometimes have a bit of exposure to the, to other folks and folks who are not necessarily demonstrating those characteristics, your picture of the world can be very distorted, unfortunately.

Yeah, for sure. And then, you know, Frollo's, I guess, hatred or marginalization of people extends, you know, obviously well beyond just Klausimoto extends then to the gypsies, right? And in kind of explaining or a portion of it where he's kind of explaining this, he says, the gypsies live outside the normal order. Their heathen ways inflame the people's lowest instincts and they must be stopped. And it's just more of this marginalization that he's doing, right?

Of who the gypsies are and what they're doing and just trying to keep people down. Where do you think that comes from for people, again, for those Frollo's that are in our lives? Where does it come from where they try to keep people down, where they try to, you know, cast people out or make people, you know, claim that people are living outside the normal order just because they're a little bit different? Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I can only psychoanalyze this so far, but I think a lot of it stems from people's lack of self-confidence and fear of fear of themselves being marginalized by others. And so it comes out in, you know, bullies and different behaviors where people are going to try to assert their springs and power and influence, right?

And how does that manifest? It's kind of like what we discussed in terms of the emotional manipulation. I'm no expert on that front, but I think we see that it's often stemming from a lack of faith in oneself that causes someone to lash out toward folks who hold less influence or power in certain respects, but actually may carry a lot more than meets the eye. Sure. How do you think, what's the role of framing for us when maybe we're not as bad as Frollo, but that we sometimes will frame somebody in a certain way or put a certain label on somebody in a certain way that then affects how we actually will interact with them?

What do you think the role of that framing is here? You know, he's saying like, the gypsies, they live outside the normal order, they're lower, they're worse than, so he's framed that way in his own mind. What's the role of framing for us as we're thinking about other people, people who maybe are different than us or not like us? Right. Yeah.

And that can extend to so many different spaces, right? Folks from a different culture or nationality than ourselves who speak a different language, racially, gender identity, you know, the list goes on and on. And I think, you know, there's a lot of ignorance in the world and, you know, and not everybody is going to be adept in understanding every lived experience and identity. And that's okay. But sometimes, you know, and again, I'm no expert on this, but we talk about this in different spaces on the part of in terms of microaggressions, right?

This notion of saying things that are not necessarily meant with malice, but doing things that actually may still produce harm in terms of the language or framing questions a certain way or having certain stereotypes of people, so on and so forth. And, you know, and these are pervasive in all spaces. And even the most well-informed person on marginalization and identities may not necessarily get it right either all the time. But I guess what I would say is that we just need to be open to learning and unlearning information and things that have been kind of espoused to us in different settings over time and realizing that there's often a lot of adjustments in our discussions around marginalized individuals, looking at that more collectively as time goes on, depending on the spaces we're a part of, right? If we're inculcated in a space where we're told xyz about an individual with a certain identity, then we're going to probably embrace that, internalize it, and express that in ways that could be hurtful as opposed to if we're in a space where we're challenging ideas and conventions and learning and exploring things on our own.

And again, that just comes down to, you know, where we grow up and what we have access to in terms of our resources, our own open-mindedness and wanting to learn from others as opposed to just having certain assumptions. Though I know that's kind of talking very broadly, but there's a lot of different factors that play into possessing those connotations of people. Before we jump back in, can I ask you a quick favor? If you're enjoying the journey so far, will you like, rate, and subscribe to our show? It helps us reach more people like you.

We can design and create and build the most wonderful place in the world, but it takes people to make the dream a reality. Yeah, well, I mean, I think the general broad application is helpful as we think about it, because I think anybody listening can say like, okay, in our lives and the different facets of our lives, in work, in home, in other spaces, when does that manifest? When do we start allowing ourselves sometimes to maybe judge a little bit from lack of information and can we be open? I think one of the things I heard you say is just like, even people who are really aware of it can sometimes still make mistakes. So what I would say is like, if we're aware of it, and we're willing to work on it, and then when those things come up, that we're not offended if somebody brings up to us that there may be, we're not looking at the whole picture, or maybe we are marginalizing somebody, if we can be open to that, and be willing to listen, be willing to acknowledge that we could do things a little bit different, I think that's really helpful in keeping the conversation going.

You know, when we take a look back at the movie, right? If we look at Esmeralda, so she herself obviously has been marginalized, she's a gypsy, and she's obviously looked down on by a lot of people. But I think you kind of see her going through that with Quasimodo, right? When she first encounters him, she thinks he's wearing a mask, because it's the fist of all fools. And she thinks that he's a really great mask that this guy's gone on.

And then initially, like, oh, wait, there's this kind of shocking reveal when she tries to pull the mask off, and it's not actually a mask, and it's him. But then she start to kind of adopt this. Later in the movie, I wrote down this quote, I want to get your take on of kind of like the role that maybe somebody can play in supporting somebody's marginalized, where she's talking to, I believe, Frollo. And she says, you mistreat this poor boy the same way you mistreat my people. You speak of justice, yet you are cruel to those most in need of your help.

And so I'm going to get your take on like, what's the role that somebody can play in supporting somebody else who might be marginalized? Yeah, I mean, I think this, it's this notion of empathy that can transcend even a specific community, right? This notion of what we say in a lot of space of being othered, right? Being viewed as the other or the different person. So and I think, you know, that's why I think these are such great characters, because Esmeralda really empathizes with Quasimodo, even though their lived experiences are different, despite the fact that, you know, Quasimodo's mom is a gypsy herself.

Like this notion of that they are shunned, they are viewed in a very negative light, unfortunately. So and so we need to, it's so important to have folks in our world who not only have complementary experiences to our own, so who can provide like a different perspective, but to find what are those common threads in terms of, you know, maybe challenges that they faced by virtue of their lived experiences. And also realizing, you know, within any community, marginalized or not, there's a lot of diversity. So also realizing that just, you know, even two people within the same very limited space may have vastly different ways of having navigated the world or what their strengths are, what their challenges are. So Esmeralda, I think is a lovely example of someone I think we all want to try to be, which is just really compassionate.

And I like her feistiness too, because I think we all need to have a bit of that. But there's a lot of good qualities that come through in how she interacts with the other characters. Yeah, for sure. Related to that, you know, the next kind of quote that I pulled was from Amy Edmondson. And one of the things that she said, I think is something that maybe we could dive into a little bit is she said, low levels of psychological safety can create a culture of silence.

And so when we look at, you know, creating psychological safety in the different environments we're in so that people can feel more empowered to be themselves, right? What perspective do you have, maybe specifically as it relates to things that you do in the School of Education over there, for helping those that are going to be in the education profession, those that are going to be professors or teachers or in higher education? Like, what kind of things do you help your students learn and understand to create kind of these this psychological safety? Yeah, gosh, that's a great question. And I think it looks, you know, it looks differently at different times and in different spaces.

But fundamentally, like I'm in a position where as a college professor and working with folks who are themselves in education and wanting to ascend their careers, like there's already some degree of shared understanding of here are the places we're a part of, right? Like, I'm sure like you thinking about your own, you know, journey, Ryan, like, you know, being in spaces related to law, like there's certain things that like everybody understands and certain people and certain norms and whatnot. So like bottom line is I'm in a helping profession. I'm in a space where we're all focused on making other people's learning experiences and settings better. So baseline, I'm in a really viable space for a lot of introspection and reflexivity.

And when I interact with students for the first time, you know, I tell them a little bit about myself. I'm more interested in them than I am sharing about me. But I make it very clear that the settings I try to create in my classroom are such that, you know, I want you all to kind of set expectations with me, like what type of environment do we want to build together? What are our expectations of one another? But also, you know, what can I do to make it a better environment for you?

And I allow folks to demonstrate this anonymously if they so choose. So they, you know, I found out from folks about whether it be different disabilities they have, or different life considerations they have, whether it's their working parents, or they're taking care of someone who's ill or whatever the case may be, elevating psychological safety in my mind is trying to kind of kind of lay it all out in terms of like, here's what I'm going to contribute to the space. Here's how I'm showing up, right? Like I share with me a lot of forms of privilege that may differ from y'all. I also have some different forms of marginalization that you may or may not be aware of.

And, you know, I share it so that you have a better understanding of how I'm approaching things. And I do think to some extent that that builds a degree of trust. But more than that, it's I think in how I engage with students and that I want to create a shared learning experience. I tell them, you know, I'm not the expert in everything and you're going to teach me stuff along the way. And even though I hold more power in this space than you, that doesn't mean that I'm not wanting to learn and adapt.

And so I think that overall that goes well and people respond favorably to that. It doesn't mean that I haven't made mistakes and made adjustments in how I've approached my teaching and other spaces. I think psychological safety translates to building a space where everybody feels welcomed and supported and can thrive. I'm particularly attuned to the fact that not all examples I bring about in class may resonate with folks, whether it be things in the history of and I try to be very self-deprecating and playful and make it not like this is my approach and I want you to feel like that you can laugh and have fun, that you can ask questions and not feel inhibited. I tell students like, don't fall into learned helplessness.

Don't be in a space where you are afraid to ask for support and ultimately then you face later challenges down the line. I can't necessarily change how you experience things internally and how you've been taught to communicate ideas or share questions. But I can reinforce that. I'd rather you be proactive and even if it's hard to ask for help or to not know how to do something to do that, as opposed to putting yourself in a compromised situation. So I think that too may also make them feel like they're in a safer environment.

I heard some really great things when it comes to creating that psychological safety. One is that you're opening up the discussion to find out what things they're looking for in the shared experience that you have and trying to create an environment where they can contribute and tell you those things. I also heard an acknowledgement that you make of hey, you're here to learn and I'm here to learn too. I don't know everything. I think that's really important.

Anytime there is going to be a power dynamic that exists, because obviously the professor, the students, there obviously is. But acknowledging that you're willing to learn and that you're willing to listen I think is very, very helpful. I also love how you talk about bringing in a little bit of levity. I think it's important in a learning environment. I think it's important in a work environment.

I think it's important in conversations. Dr. Allison Woodbrook, she has her acronym TALK if you've heard of that. One of the key things that she talks about in quality conversations that the L in TALK is for levity. Where you bring a little bit of humor because it tends to help people just feel a little bit more comfortable.

Everything doesn't have to be super serious all the time. Bringing that levity can be really helpful. What advice would you have for say people like myself who run a small business? Yes, I'm a divorce attorney and certainly there's a component there we could maybe dive into after that. But I run a small business.

I'm working with people in an environment where I want to create that psychological safety there. Other small business owners I'm sure have similar things where they want people to feel like going to work is a place they want to be and that they can feel safe and accepted in those spaces. What advice would you have for small business owners? I think those folks are very well positioned to create that because there's fewer people to account for where it's like a shared experience. I think about it like working on a team.

I don't have a small business but I've led and worked on research teams where relatively small group, much like a class. And ultimately how can you elevate that? It's through sharing what your values are. In a lot of workplaces, there's either a mission statement or a webpage or something that illustrates like here's what we're prioritizing and having folks collectively work toward whatever those goals are. But also realizing that there's some degree of iteration depending on who's part of the conversation and knowing that things may change.

It's being understanding and empathetic. And I think both things can be true. Someone can be judgmental about things they don't like in terms of qualities but at the same time, for instance, being late and not doing things in a timely fashion or whatever the case may be. My students know that I'm very precise about communicating and making sure that things are done in a timely manner and if not, please let's come up with some alternatives. But in terms of empathy, it's realizing that you don't always know when someone's showing up to work or showing up into a class, what have they dealt with in the past 12 or 24 hours with their families or their home situations, whatever the case may be.

So I think a safe environment is one where you can allow others and allow yourself to be open to talking about things that are sometimes uncomfortable or not always quite according to what you have envisioned. But if you can allocate that space, it can be helpful. I've worked with so many folks over the years where whether they had just lost someone right before class, a family member or a pet or dealing with financial concerns. Maybe I've had a few deal with natural disasters that have uprooted their home life, so many different things. So a safe work environment or safe learning environment is such where you offer yourself to be supportive and open and try to create a setting where they can feel like they can share and not just keep it all to themselves, but also still focusing on the task at hand.

And if you need to make adjustments and then work toward that, that's all well and fine. It's a great point, Brett, because as I think about that idea that I've heard from you a number of times is the empathy with those situations. In my profession, we are dealing with people going through divorce all the time and with certain situations that occur. And then we have at times have had employees where a certain start time that we have normally for the office becomes very difficult because they are divorced or going through it. And now their responsibilities with kids in school are suddenly vastly different.

And if all we do is just say like, hey, look, start time is this, no ifs, ifs, ands, or buts, I don't care what the reason is, then it becomes harder to have that environment. But when we're willing to ask the questions, we're like, okay, why have you had a hard time getting to work on time? And they can feel safe enough to come to us and say, hey, yeah, I mean, look, I'm going through a divorce here and here's the situation I have and I've got to take the kids to school. And so I have a hard time getting to work at this time, being willing to sometimes make adjustments when it's possible. Certain things are not right, like certain jobs that we have, there's just nothing you could do.

But when there is room for that, being willing to make those adjustments and make those accommodations for people so that they can come to us and we can work together to work on solutions and make things happen. I do think to your point, it just brings a little bit more of that. Having that empathy brings a little bit more of that safety there. And when you have more safety, I think people will give better work, right? Whether or not it's a work environment where their work product improves, their customer service improves, because you can create that environment.

I think it's really, really important. I really appreciate what you're saying there, Brett. I like that a lot. One of the other things I want to ask you about is there's a quote here I've got from Brene Brown where it talks a little bit about some of these topics we've come up with and maybe a little bit different light on it. But what she said is true belonging never asks us to change who we are.

True belonging requires us to be who we are. I just find that to be, I think it's timely, I think it's on point with the things that we're talking about. Let me get your take on that real quick. Yeah, true belong, say the last part again, true belonging is... True belonging requires us to be who we are.

Be who we are, yeah. And I think that can take a while for so many of us. And I think being who we are, there's so many different ways to disentangle that, right? According to time, context, who we are with, yeah, where we're at in our lives. And to kind of jump a little bit in my own timeline.

So we talked about me being homeschooled in middle high school years. I kept myself very isolated. I was trying to really make sense of how do I fit in the world? Because I feel very different. And when I started community college, I was extremely scared.

I was thinking, gosh, how am I going to navigate taking college courses, being in an unfamiliar space, and feeling like I could thrive? At the time, I wanted to be a journalist. Ultimately, things pivoted, but I was still able to harness my passion for writing into a research-related career and education. But going back to this point of being who you are, I think for so long, I held on to this notion of that, much like Quasimodo, so try to full circle. I was afraid of, would people judge me for being different?

And for me, how that showed up as a 17-year-old was I was very quiet. I was very introverted. I still had my distinct passions, but I didn't know how people would respond to that. And ultimately, I was starting a college in a space where a lot of the people were significantly older than me. But through a variety of different student leadership roles that I unexpectedly found myself in, and ultimately making friends, which was really meaningful to me, I felt more at ease with the young guy who I was becoming.

And the culmination of this that I talk about in a lot of different spaces, because I view it as a defining moment in my life, was I was selected as our student commencement speaker. And I was in front of a couple thousand people. I pretty much rehearsed this whole seven, 10-minute speech. And I basically told folks about my autism, and they didn't know it. I kept it very tight to the And I wanted to illustrate that we all have different identities and life experiences, and not everybody always sees them or understands them.

But we're all seeking to expand our lives through education and pushing ourselves and challenging ourselves. And this is how it shows up for me. And belonging as being who you are, I had reached a point, almost like some, not quite self-actualization, but a point where I felt a lot more comfortable with who I was and where I could be more transparent about that. And that has shaped a lot of subsequent experiences where I've tried to create spaces or be a part of spaces where folks can feel authentic in expressing themselves and in learning and being around others who sometimes have shared identities, not always. I'm in a field of study where there's a lot of introspection and reflexivity.

So I do research on autistic college students and disability and higher ed community colleges. So a lot of the stuff that I explore is closely connected to my own lived experiences. But I also realize that not everybody in those spaces I inherently relate to or understand or can appreciate because there's different experiences. But ultimately, it's this notion of wanting to create belonging. And that shapes both the spaces that I have control over, like a classroom or a research team, but also joining a space and wanting to elevate those considerations.

So being who we are is important, but it requires folks who are holding some degree of influence to set those norms and not just talk the talk, but walk the walk. And that's not always an easy thing to do. Yeah, for sure. So when we go back to that commencement speech, what did that feel like emotionally leading up to it as you're putting together what your speech is going to be and going to be talking about those things? What kind of emotions were experiencing leading up to it?

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if I knew from the onset when I've selected that I was going to go quite that angle, but I felt like in many ways I had proven myself to others through, I mean, I led our campus newspaper, I led our honor society. I was very visible on campus, and I felt like, you know what, I feel empowered, and I feel empowered for people to hear about a different piece of me. People didn't know, and not even back then in that context, realize the amount of stress that I carried with me in trying to show up in spaces where I looked like I had a lot of it together, but I was just filled with anxiety and uncertainty. And so for me, I wanted to utilize that as an opportunity for empowerment, not only for myself, but also for others. And I mean, for all intents and purposes, this was 14 years ago now, and a lot's changed.

And who knows who I graduated with or who was there, to what extent anything I said may have carried with them. But for me, at the very least, it was a chance to feel like that I literally had the stage. I had a lot of influence in that moment. And I think it's with that spirit that I try to carry with me in my subsequent work and roles where I want everybody's voice to matter and to feel like that they have the opportunity to share it, even if it's not standing in front of a podium, but rather maybe it's in a meeting among one small business for someone to raise their hand and question something that feels unsettling to them or to just elevate a question in a classroom. Little things make a difference.

And if I can play a role in fostering settings that empower others, great. And also I know that I may not always do things right along those lines in the spaces where I do carry that power. But anybody who knows me personally realizes my openness to adapt and hear others feedback and try to create a constructive shared space, if you will. Well, I mean, I guess what I say, let me to ear horn a little bit. I mean, certainly, I'm sure that there was people there who were impacted by what you shared.

And I'll go with our yes and. And like you said, you've shared it now since it's shaped and affected what you've done since then. And you have created a career out of looking out for those people and helping people who may have felt that way or may feel that way. And so you have your career in academia doing that. And you also have your podcast where you do that, where you, I think, really help people to build a sense of belonging when they might not otherwise help people who might feel a to feel like they've got a place where they can come where they can be heard and that their impact matters, that who they are matters and that everybody has something to contribute.

So certainly that had impact then and continues to have impact in what you're doing with your career. So sorry, I said to your horn a little bit, Brad, OK, we've got to give you some credit here, my man. Before we move to our this or that, one to get any kind of final thoughts you had about the hunchback of Notre Dame and about this kind of topic that we've been talking about. Yeah, no, I think it's a beautiful story. And the reason why I felt like that was because when we're kind of talking about potential directions to take the conversation and I mentioned hunchback because it's very much always resonated with me.

Like Quasimodo is kind of the archetype of someone who feels like an outsider, who feels, I think, some degree of shame for being different and fear of being treated poorly by others. And his story, I think, connects with a lot of people who are marginalized, especially folks who are disabled in the disability community. It's a story that I think has also connected with a lot of folks in the LGBTQ plus community for this notion of like masking, like trying to put on a different image just out of acceptance and self-protection. So there's different video essays and things online about how hunchback shows up in kind of those contexts. And so for me, and also as someone who's gay and who experiences different forms of non-apparent maybe marginalization, I'm very mindful of stories that have that quality.

And I think hunchback is one of those. And I think the takeaway is it's a story that really preaches understanding and acceptance and also this idea of going outside of your comfort zone and putting yourself out there. So I think it has great value. I don't think as a child, I could have interpreted it from that lens. And I don't know if a lot, maybe some kids are, I do believe in the power of children being very intuitive and seeing things more than what maybe their parents or older people would expect of them.

But I think as I've gone older, it's had further meaning because of those very pervasive values and priorities. Yeah, totally agree. Yeah, it's a great way to wrap that up. Thank you for sharing that. And thank you for sharing your thoughts about this wonderful movie and how it relates to you, the ways that you have experienced things throughout your life and being very vulnerable with us.

We really appreciate that. I think that there's a power in story and in both Disney stories, but also in real stories too, and the ways that people can connect with it. So thank you for sharing that. So let's move to a couple of fun segments. So our first is going to be this or that.

So just ask you this or that, and you kind of give me your thoughts and we'll see where it goes. We'll see where it goes. Okay. First one is Bell Tower or Court of Miracles? Oh, I thought the Bell Tower would be a cool place to be at in particular.

Yeah, I mean, just the architecture is stunning. So I think for that alone, that stands out for me. Yeah, I like that. I like that answer. That's a good one.

Okay, here's the next one. This one might be tough. It might not be, but it might be tough. Quasimodo or Esmeralda? Oh, they're both great characters.

Let's just say Esmeralda. I think, I really think, I mean, I love the characters, but I also love the voice performances. And I think Demi Moore doesn't get enough credit for her just really like sensitive, but also fun voice work as Esmeralda. Yeah, terrific character. She does a great job with that one for sure.

Okay, a gargoyle sidekick or a human sidekick? The gargoyles get so much flack. They're fun. I like them. I do too.

They add some levity. Yeah, they do. I'm not mistaken. Was it Jason Alexander that was one of them? Yeah, he did.

He did Hugo. Yeah, that was back in like peak Seinfeld days. It was. I was a huge Seinfeld guy. I was born in the 80s.

I was born in the early 80s. So I was very much like, I'm starting to watch shows. My granddad watched a lot. He would record on a VHS and we'd go to his house on Sundays and he would like so excited to put the VHS in to show a Seinfeld and we'd sit there and watch it with him. So I love me some Jason Alexander.

He's a Oh boy. I do love stained glass windows. Even if I don't always love the content of it, if it's like something that doesn't even resonate with me, I think it's just such a cool form of artistry. Yeah, I agree. I didn't really understand how stained glass was made and then when I've seen a couple of things showing what they've got to do to make it and you're right, like the artistry of making it is just very impressive.

I'm always impressed when somebody can do something that I know I can't do. I'm always like, wow, that's really good. That's amazing. Okay, how about we're going to widen this a little bit. How about fiction or nonfiction book?

Okay, so most of the books, almost all the books I think behind me are all Disney nonfiction books. So that's, even though I enjoy the stories associated with the world of Disney in terms of like from a visual storytelling fashion in terms of reading, I'm more of a nonfiction guy. Okay, nonfiction it is. I like it. And the last this or that physical book or audio book?

Physical. I like being able to hold something in my hands. You like the tactile physical book. Yeah, and I like being able to have them on a bookcase, man. See, that's the part I miss out on because I don't because I'm an audio book guy through and through.

I've got hundreds of titles in my audible, but then I don't get to have stuff in my bookshelf. I'll look at a couple of books. Although I did notice and I noticed this when we talked before, we do have one in common, The Dream Chasing by Bob Weiss. I've got that one as well. Love that book.

Bob Weiss, such an inspiration. That guy is amazing. All right, let's hit our rapid fire before we get to our three actual takeaways in the last couple of minutes we have. So favorite Disney movie? Would be Toy Story.

Okay, I meant to ask you. So Toy Story is your favorite. When I went back and listened to your first episode of Notably Disney, you mentioned that Toy Story 4 was about to come out. And now we have Toy Story 5. I want to get your quick take.

Toy Story 4, what did you actually think? And what do you think about Toy Story 5? Toy Story 4 is underwhelming and I think disappointing because a lot of the characters that we love get kind of pushed to the side. Even though the Woody and Boe story is endearing, it's like you basically have like Slinky Dog or Rex have like a couple lines each and it's like that's not satisfying. Yeah, Toy Story 4 has its value and I think in the pantheon of animated films is a great film, but because it doesn't hold up to its predecessors, it's like, it's the weakest one of the five.

Five, I think, bumps things back up in a good direction. Nice full circle Jesse story. There's some connections to themes from the earlier films. I think it's a solid entry. Yeah, I completely agree.

I don't have anything to add because that is so exactly the way that I felt about both of them. So we are spot on there. All right, this is going to be a good one too because of the themes of your podcast. Favorite Disney song. Yeah, I don't think I have one.

I don't think I have one singular song. Give me a top five. Yeah, my top five, I was just going to say. So out there is in the top five. It's incredible.

Bell from Eating the Beast, our opening five, six minute number. So good. It's such a perfect start to that movie. Oh, just yeah. Amazing.

Yeah. Alan Menken had some some rock and openings songs for a song. So I would also add Part of Your World from The Little Mermaid, A Whole New World from Aladdin. So Menken pretty much just has it all covered. And then I would probably add kind of more of one of the older songs.

I would go with When You Wish Upon a Star because of the significance. But I mean, it's the it's kind of the it's the emblematic Disney song. It's the anthem, I should say. It's the anthem. Yeah, that's a great list, Brett.

That is a terrific list. I love it. Okay, favorite Disney princess. Bell. She's books.

You love books. So it totally makes sense. Yeah, she's she's she's smart. She questions convention. She she holds, you know, she's very firm in her values and what matters.

She's a she's a great role model for any of us, men or women or, or any other gender. She's just just a terrific character. Yeah, she's amazing. Okay, favorite Disney park. I would probably say Disneyland in California, probably because of the typical answer, right?

It was Walt's Park. He built it from scratch. It's evolved. It has its flaws, but it has so much charm. EPCOT's a close second.

I did my actually I did my undergraduate honors thesis on EPCOT. And I love EPCOT. EPCOT's had an identity crisis for a while. And that makes it a little bit more challenging to to embrace in quite the same ways, because it's just it's disjointed. But I but I still love EPCOT and what it represents.

Disneyland is most consistent in terms of what its aim to represent, which is different worlds of fantasy and tomorrow and wonder adventure, all the things. Yeah, great answers. Okay, favorite. Let's go with the favorite Disney book. I don't know if I can answer that.

I feel like if I if I answer it one way, like I might offend like other authors, I've had on the podcast. Give me an under the radar pick. Maybe something that our listeners maybe haven't picked up that they could maybe something you've read recently, you're like, Hey, this was really great. Yeah, it's not a recent one that I've read. But I don't know how under the radar it is.

But many folks are probably familiar with the incredible Leslie Iwerks documentary, the imaginary story. So what everybody may not know is that there's a complimentary book that's hundreds of pages that expands the scope and level of depth of the different attractions and parks and Imagineers that are showcased. It's a fantastic nonfiction read it as a tome and it will take a while to read but it really uncovers a lot that the documentary only scratches the surface of because of just length and format and whatnot. So I would say check out that book. Well, we're gonna put a link to that in the show notes.

My producer will put that in our show notes. Make sure we link that up so people can find that. Well, Brett, thank you so much for being on. Thank you for spending your time with us for having a fun with us. It's kind of a closing.

We always like to give our listeners three actionable takeaways, something they could put into effect in their lives today or this week. What would be your three recommended actionable takeaways? Yeah, yeah. And I was trying to think of what would be good ones to head on here. And I think some of these, or most of these allude to some topics we've already discussed, Ryan.

I think for one, a big part of my journey has been just learning to things on my own and kind of coming into my own, taking certain agency and advocacy for myself. And I think those are universal themes. So I guess one actionable tool is like realize you can do things on your own and know that you have resources that can support you. So that goes back to the notion of like creating a welcoming business or classroom or atmosphere where you want to empower people to feel like they can do stuff on their own, but also reassure them that there are people and tools that can and will support you. So I want to really reinforce that.

I also, and I think the second item might, or takeaway might be applicable to our discussion in terms of, I like to view every day as a learning experience and see what you can take with you to future situations. We're talking a lot about empathizing with others and trying to support others who may have different life experiences. And that also relates to like, if you say or do something that's not quite right and trying to make pivots to be more patient with yourself and extend patience toward others and be empathetic, all the things. So I try to, especially when I have hard days, right, I try to view each day as a learning experience. Like what did I come away from today in terms of a conversation I had, something I learned from others, something I discovered about myself.

I think that has a lot of universal value. And then third takeaway was like challenge yourself to think more of what you can accomplish. A lot of my life, I think, and I think many people can relate to this notion is trying to defy other expectations of what you could be. And I think I had a lot of resources available to me in terms of being able to work on the things I had challenges with and also capitalizing on my strengths. And that's something that I really focus on and working with others is like, how do we leverage what is really unique and really special and how do we try to work through, whether it's like a skill or a particular thing about students or whatever, like how do we try to adjust the things that are not quite on par?

And so I really try to push others to think of like, you can do a lot more than you believe. You just need to be around people who foster that sentiment and environment of building on strengths. And I think that's something that we all can embrace. There's so much more that we can do than we realize. We just can't feel inhibited.

So it comes down to other people who carry more influence and support and can support you to reinforce this notion. Yeah, you can do a lot more. You need that external validation, but you also need it in here internally. Yeah, I love it. That's absolutely fantastic.

And in the spirit of learning as well, anybody who's listening to this, hopefully you're taking notes. Hopefully you took some great things away because this episode was just full of just great things from Brett. And he was so gracious to share his time with us today. Thank you so much, Brett, for spending some great time with us. Really looking forward to what people can learn from you and from your experiences.

So thank you so much. Yeah, my pleasure, Ryan. Really appreciate the space that you create via this podcast. I think it's a unique and special podcast in the Disney universe and really elevating storytelling and takeaways and lessons. So I appreciate being part of the conversation.

Thank you so much, my man. As you leave this conversation, remember that yes, the past can hurt and you can either run from it or you can learn from it. So here's to learning and finding joy in the journey. See you real soon.