I took home this black lava rock from the island and I packed it in my suitcase, didn't even think about it, went home and then literally Ryan my life blew up and the divorce all went through within maybe six weeks. So take me down the path of like where you see the lessons that we can learn from Cruella DeVille in 101 Dalmatians. Well first off she's a businesswoman Ryan. She totally is. And she knows what she wants.

She communicates her needs. We all have a little, I'm admitting it, I have a little Cruella in me. I'm going to tell you why too. There's just no rule book. The grief is love with nowhere to go and there's just no way through it other than through it and there's no timeline and it's not linear.

It's going to be this big crazy beautiful life and I'm okay and I'm here for it. Like that's just my life. Welcome to Yes And Land where we say yes to the reality of yesterday and today and we say and to the possibility growth and imagination of tomorrow. Welcome everybody to our next episode of Yes And Land. Very excited today because we're going to conversation with one of my very very good friends Erin Madsen who is just a lovely person and has a killer killer podcast of her own and it's called the Lay Low podcast right.

To grow you have to lay low. That's it Ryan. And it's a must listen honestly. She's very vulnerable and honest in the podcast and why I've personally enjoyed listening to the episodes that are there and really gotten deep in a lot of things too and you know we might get deep on some of those things today right. Erin's as many of us have been she's been through some things in her life and been through some vulnerable things that have helped her to learn who she is and to grow.

So very excited for us to dive into some of that today and get a little vulnerable but then also at the end maybe have a little bit of fun. So welcome to the podcast Erin. Thank you Ryan. I'm happy to be here. Well first off what's your story of how we met?

Well so for me it was through a couple of people that we know really well. A good friend of mine Sabrina who is a member of the South By Chamber of Commerce. We had been along with Dave Peabody had been in this business accelerator class together when I very first opened my firm and like when I needed all the owners who were either in a period of initiation in their company or needing to kind of break through and grow and so I started to get to know Sabrina and David a little bit and then it had been a little while actually since I had really talked with them much and I was just kind of having this pull back to like wanting to connect with more business owners and just having more people that I could like relate to and I can't remember who came up with this idea of they're like hey we should do our own mastermind and then both of them were like hey we know this person would be perfect for this her name is Erin I'm like all in let's do it and so we decided to get together and meet and we met in my office and like it hit it off I like love talking with with you and the two of them and it was super fun for me and really rewarding for me to get to like hear the wisdom from you guys as I'm like soaking in trying to like get better and learn from you guys and it was like it was really fun that first day I had a great time when we came here and so that's kind of my that's my version of it let's hear yours probably more personal because hello that is me I remember like so much of that day but yes Sabrina and I share an office so she and I had connected and she's a doll and she had come to me and said hey I have these two guys and we're gonna start a mastermind group do you want to be our fourth member and I remember at that time how I did not feel worthy first of all to be in a mastermind group and if some of your listeners don't know a mastermind group is really where business owners would come together to tackle any sort of issues or brainstorm or really dig into the parts of your business that you have questions or don't understand because I think a lot of people out there think a business owner just has everything figured out where you literally just learn as you go that's exactly right and it's a lonely road being on your own running a business and so I think for me like having this opportunity to come in with three other people who own their own businesses Ryan is a lawyer Sabrina runs a mortgage company and Dave does marketing and signs like actual like physical signs and so we have such different businesses but I can't tell you how much I have learned from you guys like as a group and also one-on-one and a lot of times when I have a question one of you are the first people that I reach out to so but I do remember the very first time I met you our first meeting do you remember well I mean other than like being here at the office nothing in particular thank you we we love it we love we think they did such a great job when they did our tenant improvements when we first moved in but well tell me what you remember from that experience what am I missing I remember being in my car before and being like Aaron who are you even walk into this meeting you have a baby business and you don't know what you're doing most of the days and I sat in the car and I really was really nervous to come in um I remember walking in Ryan has a gorgeous office and it smelled so good and I remember going back to my office that next day and getting some sort of scent because I was like what a difference it walking into this office and so I took that away immediately but I remember all being in the room and we took turns going around and explaining about our business and we had to answer the question what is the biggest pain point of your business and this was at a time where I was engaged I was working with my fiance and I had never felt so alone in a business or a job or anything and I remember being in that room and when it was my turn I didn't even think about it I didn't even think about it Ryan I just like blurted out I didn't even know you guys never had met you and when it was what is the biggest pain point of your business I said I work with my fiance and he does not respect me and I like that was the words because I went I won't ever forget and that's a vulnerable thing to say to people you don't know for sure and it just like came out and I remember all of you just being like okay let's talk this out like tell us the situation and I went into it and you had great advice for me right away do you remember your advice for me the first thing you said I don't remember the first thing but I think ultimately part of it was like that might not be the best option to work with your fiance yeah you said if you want to marry him you need to fire him yeah and the other guy said too he had experience working with his wife and he's like at this point it is one or the other if you want to work together you shouldn't get married and if you want to get married you shouldn't work together and that was a huge that was maybe the first time I had said those words out loud to anybody and saying it to you guys kind of you know sometimes when you say something out loud it makes it really real absolutely and we hold it for a long time because sometimes we're afraid that when we do say they will become real but I think that's why also I love my podcast because I just get it all out yeah and the more you talk the more comes out yeah and when I said that to you guys that day um I started more conversations with other people I talked to I had an honest conversation with my parents telling them this is actually what's happening um my therapist I went to her and I said this is actually what's happening it but you guys were the first people and it was such a safe place for me and it really changed the road I was on because that ended up being a relationship that ended and he did get fired and you helped me as my lawyer thank you very much and you got it and I've been able to really rebuild and have a fresh start and it's been the best decision that I could have made and I just want to thank you for being there and having such good advice for me and just really saying I got you we're gonna do this one and what a blessing for us that you were willing to as bernay brown says like rumble with vulnerability because you did you you went into that and even though you may have been nervous you didn't show it and you were willing to be vulnerable in place where um thankfully we we had the blessing of being able to be there with you during that time right because as you showed strength in doing that you strengthened us isn't that what's interesting too when we're vulnerable because it did right it helped us see like okay you know we're we all can struggle with things if you know what this group has got our backs right we can go to this group with with issues that we're facing because man if erin's willing to be vulnerable like maybe i can too right maybe i can't do maybe this is a safe place for us to be and it was really a rewarding experience for me to be able to meet the times that we did because that's really what it came I mean i talked with you guys about things that sometimes you can't talk about with your employees right when you're trying to lead an organization you can't wrap your employees into all the sometimes difficult things behind the scenes if something is struggling or something's not going well you need them to focus on the things they do and you have to carry weight as the owner but if you can talk to other people about the things that you're struggling with whether or not it's personnel decisions you have to make or people that you feel like you need to fire but you've got to talk to somebody about it that's not the other employees that became the real space for me that many times that's what i talk to you guys about is i bring to you like okay guys here's what I'm struggling with here's what this employee is doing here's what's happening here how do i navigate this and it gave me that space and so your initial vulnerability opened it we could then do that same thing which was really beautiful but then you also realize how quickly that every business has a pain point every business owner is feeling the same way you are yeah and there's just a level of comfort in that that you don't feel like you're alone and I know i love our little group definitely great so so here's a couple of things i want to know about you right um and I think I know to some degree but I'd love for our listeners to hear a little bit about it like how how did it come about that you started this company that you because you had a history I think doing some it might even have been some um some kind of sales was it multi-level marketing sales or something yeah and you were like killer salesperson like president's club all the time kind of gal right it was a skincare company yeah so i actually have a marketing degree from byu I was a byu cougar I was um i graduated married and pregnant so I was success story and the mrs degree as they call it there but i got my marketing degree and i really just dove in from right out of college and i love marketing and i love sales just they're so hand in hand but I was working in the skincare industry at for an mlm and that experience i learned a lot I'm sure because some of those same systems and processes that i use to run hundreds and women selling skincare i use the same thing for sales reps selling construction projects and solar and batteries and all kinds of things so it's been a good lesson to show me that business is business sales is sales and it doesn't have to be as scary as you sometimes think that it is but I was working in the skincare industry and I was dating this guy who was selling solar and he just was really organized and I was like hey i can help maybe he didn't like that but um i went from being his assistant to being his boss with your shot girl i love it maybe that's why yeah he's not here anymore maybe he couldn't hang yeah yeah but yeah that's really how it started was the organization of construction is so different than the sales process and most salespeople struggle with operations and so i came in and really built out an energy brokerage that we do a handful of home upgrades that make your home more energy efficient and i um run all of the advertising marketing for that and then we sell each of the projects i subcontract everything out and we just give people really good professional experience and it's used local options and it's just gone really well but yeah it wasn't anything I was really passionate about I was I'm passionate about business and growth um this was just an easy thing for me to grow sure what was it about sales that attracted you to sales like what component of sales is it that you really like i love that the harder i more money i made okay because if you work for a company and you have a salary and you have your nine to five you can work really hard and get paid the exact same versus working not so hard right and i just I'm a hard worker i come from a really strong line of women who are bosses both of my grandmothers own businesses and just went in it where if I was going to work hard i wanted to make sure I was rewarded and i just always loved the flexibility of doing my own thing being able to travel is important to me and marketing and sales was an avenue i could do remotely pretty easily and and so i still feel like i have more flexibility than a lot of people okay so a couple more questions I'm gonna dig a little deeper here because I think you're right it's a good answer when when it comes to your ability to control what you can make because you work harder what is it about marketing that you like what attracts you to being a marketing major why that over a million other things you can do where you work hard I think the creativity part of it which we were talking because I think my podcast also really feeds that creative part of me that's all that's why i started lay low because I was running a business and I was doing a lot of just like grinding and i wasn't feeding my soul and so i just really felt like i needed to have a voice i started writing a book and it went really well until i got to my divorce and then i had a hard time navigating how do i tell my story without it disrupting everybody around me is live especially my ex-husband who i care about that relationship and with his wife as well so it was tricky with the book so i put a pause to the book switch to the podcast but the creativity of podcast was what was missing in my sales job and marketing is so creative for me but um as i have grown the sales side of the business and some of that marketing I've had to contract out i used to do it in house forever and ever it's one of those things you do it yourself until you literally can't do it anymore and once i pass that on and outsource some of my marketing is when I was to feed my creative soul so I think that just the creativity and realizing what makes a person tick what gets their attention how to solve a problem that's all marketing is is what's the problem how do you solve it yeah i love that hey before we keep going i wanted to take a second and shout out another show I've been really into lately it's called the wisdom of walt didn't expect to get hooked the way that i did but here we are if you like what we do here i think you'll really vibe with that one too so so go check it out and when it comes to the sales component uh beyond just the ability to control what you make by working harder what is it about sales that attracts you like when you're thinking about selling something what what part of that is rewarding to you in that process probably solving the problem because for the customer yes okay yeah because if if somebody is has their parents move into their house and then their grandkids move into the house and then they have this huge house of multi-generations which is becoming very normal in our economy definitely then they have this humongous power bill because they've got everybody using the showers at different times and the kids aren't leaving the lights kids aren't turning the lights off so they have a problem and they're looking for a solution so that's when i come in do like an energy audit and see different ways that we can improve the home and bring down those bills so to me that part is just problem and giving a solution and taking care of people also and doing things the right way it's interesting because my son right now he served a mormon mission and got really good at knocking doors for sure so he got home he lives in utah county and I was like come sell for me hello you just were selling for two years come sell for me and he's so turned off by salespeople and he's like they're pushy and um they just care about money and I was like it really made me stop and think and when he first told me all that I didn't even respond because I was like yeah i could see that side but the longer i sat with it i talked to him later and i said i get that also that's when sales needs to have good people that are in sales you can't just have all this pushy people and I don't consider myself pushy at all but i just consider myself organized and I'm good at following up and sometimes maybe somebody would think that's pushy but to me it's just like you got a problem i brought you a solution how can i take care of you and to me that's a positive way of selling and taking care of a client instead of doing something that's like no room for that in my company or but now I mean correct me if I'm wrong my one of my guesses would be that part of it for you might be the value of the relationship that you're building because that's what i personally experienced with you right that you're very good at building a relationship you're very good at building trust there and when you want to have a salesperson who is better beyond the surface right and doing for the right reasons part of that is relationship based part of it is being able to trust that individual is that is that a component of it for you that and I don't even think about that but that's the whole basis of it because when I think of my clients I'm problem solving because i want to take care of them because I don't want them to keep going on with a problem i want to come in with some real logistical results that are going take care of it and the people are the fun part of sales really because you see all walks of life and especially when you go into the home which i go in and you know we'll check out the electrical and the roof and everything so I'm in people's homes it's so fun to see people in their element and when you drive by like house to house in your neighborhood you literally have no idea what's every door but i do because I'm going into I'm going into the homes and seeing it and it's just it's cool to see people in their home in that way yeah yeah i love that I think it's such an interesting way to think about sales because I think we do need more people who are doing it for the right reasons who are doing it motivated to truly help somebody you know when i do a divorce consultation I'm probably not the best salesperson because i try to bring that to the consultation which is i want to care about this person i want to care about what the future of the situation is going to look like and there's times where the conversation is hey you know it sounds like you're actually not ready to do this divorce it sounds like you're so early on this I'm happy to give you information so you have knowledge and then you know you come back if things don't work out but honestly i hope it does work out right if you can have this information knowing this now you can go work on some things and fix your relationship fantastic and so in that sense like I'm not the salesman that's going to close every deal but i much prefer that our people here take that approach because we want to care about the the clients that absolutely right right and i tell people when i sit down with them I'm like if i can't help you I'm going to tell you you know but i have a lot of solutions and i have a lot of options and let me just see what we can do yeah so okay I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap this into we're gonna start wrapping this into the disney movie you selected which I was so happy that you did because we haven't done it yet which is 101 Dalmatians and and not just that though i really I'm very intrigued to see where we go with this because when i first started thinking about this and i told you in the pre-show I was thinking like okay we're going to talk about this with you know the Dalmatians themselves Pongo and Perdita and the care they have for uh these you know 99 Dalmatians that are there and their relationships there but then what i got from you before was really more this angle of looking at Cruella and i thought okay this is interesting this is really interesting here so so take me down the path of like where where you see the lessons that we can learn from Cruella 101 Dalmatians well first off she's a business woman Ryan she totally is a hundred percent she is and she's are we allowed to say badass because sure she is a badass businesswoman I mean she knows what she wants she communicates her needs and she doesn't really care how it happens she just knows that that's her responsibility to say what she wants and let the the results come to her but as a businesswoman she is pretty fascinating right she is very fascinating you know it when whenever whenever you have a really compelling story part of that is um if there's more than one level of intrigue for a villain if you have a really one-dimensional villain it's just not as compelling of a story and i had never really thought of Cruella de Vil as a multi-dimensional villain but but really as you've pointed out already she really is there's actually some good things that are there there right well everybody has we like to think that we are all good Ryan but we all have a little bad it's like a Ted Lasso quote i want to say like i love Ted Lasso but so good um we all have a little I don't know I'm admitting it i have a little Cruella in me I'm gonna tell you why too but think about how she like walks into the room like she literally owns the place dress top to bottom looking sharp exactly how she she walked out that door looking exactly how she wanted to look um but it's her comp she has a level of confidence even though it doesn't always come across as something positive but she's a confident lady right and so when you look at it that way though what what are the things that if we're saying she's got some good traits what are the what are the bad traits what are the things that you're identifying that like okay like yes she has some good things here's the problem though here's the problem with the way that it plays out with what she's doing the problem is she hates dogs like that is the big thing that I am not like her because i like dogs more than people there's no way i would ever harm any dog but i do love fur is that bad so i connect with her because i love fur and when i walked in Ryan's office he was like i can't believe you don't have a fur on and i said if i would have known how cold it is in your office Ryan i would have worn my fur in August in the middle of a 100 degree day it's a little chill in here it's probably 65 degrees in here it's a little cold but i do love fur but i would never harm a dog yeah but the fur thing comes from my grandma like i wear my grandma's fur and to me like I mean an old vintage fur is great because you don't have to feel bad about where it came from because it's already been dealt with and now you can just enjoy it but i actually do want like a bobcat to the ground fur that is spotted like Cruella and that has been something i wanted before we even talked about this so i really do connect with her yeah don't judge me only the good parts the good parts right yeah I think what you bring up is a really great point which is look it's what we call like the economy of man right like we we are dual beings we we do have good things and bad things that exist within all of us and part of is identifying what those things are and trying to bring out the best for me part of part of what we're seeing here is in what's the motivation right like is it is it good to be self-confident yes is it good to um if you are a business owner to build a command presence right when you walk into a room absolutely to me the key distinguishing factor at least one of them is what is the motivation is she doing something to serve herself or to serve others right in what her business is and and very clearly the way that she's implementing is want to kill all these dogs right like she's not somebody else right she's she's serving herself it's very much like inward looking and so if you were her if you were her confident she was in a mastermind with you and she's coming to you what advice would you give to cruella to help shift what she's doing and use her skills for good rather than for evil i would say look at how you treat people because no business owner is going to get anywhere without treating everybody really well and especially the people working for you um i would also say to keep the she has such a like intense vibe in the negative way and i would want her to shift that intense vibe to just be a little more on the positive side maybe her tone take down her tone a little bit smile a little more I am not like her in that way i really care a lot about positive happy vibes and just positivity that is something that i do not connect with cruella about part of with the podcast is just helping people grow and learn and take the lessons of the really hard days and find the lessons in the good and move forward and with cruella she just is very selfish in a bad way I think but i don't think it's bad to be selfish also I think there is a time to be selfish oh yeah so during my divorce and I'm probably gonna bring like even just stuff that you said I was like triggered to me during my divorce with my divorce lawyer like when you said sometimes you sit down with people and um you're like I don't think you're ready have you said that to a client before if they tell me they're not i tell them it's not my job to force you to get divorced if you're ready to get divorced okay that's my job but don't you think sometimes people don't know if they're ready until they sit down and like talk a lot okay so the first time i I mean i went a couple times before i did my filing but i the final time when i went and i gave them the check and I was like go forward and then i sent him a text at like 2 a.m and I was like stop don't I was like i need i need a little more time yeah and a week later it was filed and i felt good about it but it was almost just like you're not ready until you are exactly ready and it really is a hard decision and it's hard to be the one to pull the plug it's hard to be the one that goes to do the filing no question um but just you saying that it made me think about being in that room and what a big deal it is so you really do sit with people during a very vulnerable time scary time I'm sure they're anxious it is a situation nobody wants to be in yet half of america ends up being in it we always say nobody gets married wanting to get divorced right so when that time comes it's not something that was originally desired it might be the right thing at that time obviously but not not originally but i do have a quote i wanted to ask you about okay are you ready for this yeah okay here goes uh do you know who um jamie kern lemma is i do not she was the founder of cosmetics oh i read her book you told me to read her book i read it there you go that is a great business story oh it's amazing right she has so much to share we're gonna put we're gonna put the link to that in the show notes you do have good book recommendations and I think my bookshelf in my office half of them are good good and this is a great one here's something that she said that i thought was really interesting uh recently um she was uh from an interview she did if you show up as who you authentically are in the fullness of who you are there is nothing wrong with you and so I was I was thinking about that especially as you're talking about like hey look i i like furs and i like to walk into a room and feel like I'm you know powerful or you know how how karela does that like there is nothing wrong with that right um what what's your take on that quote that she had for people who are maybe sometimes holding themselves back because they feel like they can't show up who they really are I think a lot of people worry about what other people are going to think and that's probably a big part of what holds people back to being themselves because they we all want to be accepted we want to be loved and taken into the fold right but when you are drinking yourself to be in those situations it's a disservice so really getting the confidence and getting really serious about who am i and who do i want to be to the world and being really okay with not everybody liking you because it's okay you don't need everybody to like you you need the right people to like you and i do think the word selfish gets such a bad rap and cruella was definitely selfish I mean she wanted to steal all those puppies for her fur I'm not going to steal anybody's puppies for my fur okay let me make all the puppies are safe the puppy the bob cats might not be who knows no but but they're they're they're also like kind of nuisances on farms and stuff they like okay that's what i tell myself anyway selfish during my when I was getting divorced my ex would just tell me you're being so selfish you're selfish you're selfish and just like trying to stab me with that word and it made me angry because i thought what world is it where i can't do what's best for me and i had to just really just get really confident in myself enough where when somebody was like you're being selfish that i could say actually I'm just taking care of myself and I'm doing what i need to do and if that makes me selfish whatever you want to call it but at this moment i can't go on with how it was i have to make a change and I think that we need to give permission people we need to give people permission to be selfish in times where they're trying to save themselves that's literally how i felt I was like i have to save myself and if i have to be selfish to save myself then that's what I'm going to do but cruella selfishness is we all know people that are just selfish because they only care about themselves I think there's just a big difference with that word and how it can be taken yeah and I think you bring up a good point right because I think the word can be used in a number of different settings some for good and some for bad i when I think about what you were saying to me it's the image that comes to my mind is you always hear yours are told every time you fly right if something happens in flight and those things pop down right the little oxygen things you put your mask on first you don't put it on somebody else first you have to put it on yourself first because if you don't and you're trying to do somebody else you might pass out or die right that's the idea but I think I think that principle really applies which is there are times and seasons where you've got to be a little bit more self-reflective and looking at like what do i need to do to make sure I'm okay because I'm not okay right now and I've got to be okay and is that does some people call that selfish maybe they will and maybe it's just a bad label for it but we have to do that in time we have to make sure that we are okay so we can start to live into our authentic selves and live into who we can be because when we can in my opinion that's when we can actually do a greater good for other people absolutely and you even just think about being a parent how are you supposed to be a good parent when you're miserable and you are not taking care of yourself and i had to teach my kids mom has got to to be the best mom i need to be happy and in order to be happy i need to make changes and really teaching them the process and you know my kids have gone through more change than the average children but they'll be the first to tell you that they're adaptable and they're okay and they've learned a lot and i hope that they know if they're ever in a situation where they need a moment to do what's best for them that they'll do it and i will always encourage them to what did that look like in that season for you to choose yourself and also to choose your kids first what did that look like how did that play out during that season of divorce oh it was it was rough Ryan I was living in a one-stoplight town that was very mormon influenced in the central part of utah and I'm from dallas I'm a city girl like when i moved to provo dallas that explains the fur in the boots too right totally does and yeah the cowboy boots today 100 it does i wish i had worn mine but i told you I've got ostrich boots those are the ones i have i should have sent you the the wardrobe requirement I know we're not coordinating very well here erin no but I was living literally the most opposite of an authentic life I mean I was really in a small town trapped and i was working in provo so I was every I was coming up so much and i just felt so pulled and it was because for me to do what was best for me it required a move it required a lot of change for my kids it wasn't going to be a situation where mom's down the street dad's down the street and everything's the same it really did disrupt their lives more probably than i would like but also we learned so many lessons and we still talk about them like our we built our dream house and within eight months we were in a tiny tiny little apartment that was so small but we still talk about it and we're like we learned the lesson that you can be happy anywhere and now where my son was on a mission or my other son's living in texas right now and you know as a smaller place I'm like it doesn't matter we've learned this already you know that's old news we can be happy anywhere and if you can teach your kids at a young age they can be happy anywhere i look at that as a part of the divorce even though it's hard to dig and find a lot of positive things during such a dark time but the lessons do come out eventually it might take a little time but the lessons are always there and you really do just have to sit and think what is the lesson to learn and hold on to that part and let the rest go as you're talking it just reminds me that there is so much power in going through humble circumstances at times you know i can remember first year law school my ex-wife and i we moved there sight unseen didn't have any kids at the time didn't couldn't afford to go there first to check out scope out the places so we just had to like base it off of photos on the internet and this was back in 2006 so wasn't wasn't nearly what it is today right have a much better idea what it is today so we move into this apartment complex that looked great from the pictures once we get there realized they just thrown a new paint job on it and it was the worst cockroach infested place like that I've ever been around and for that entire year we stuck it out and everything that we had had to be in Tupperware every bit of food had to be in Tupperware you couldn't cook on the stove and not be right there to watch it because cockroaches would just fall into whatever the pot was that you were cooking and it was I mean it was a terrible living arrangement we couldn't get rid of the cockroaches because we were a bottom unit and all the the units around us this is what the exterminator told us weren't clean either or weren't clean we were but they weren't so we were just going to continue to get cockroaches no matter how many times he treated no matter how much we did to keep it clean was just going to keep happening and you know at the time it felt horrible i look back on that now like any place I've lived since then I'm like this place is great I don't care that it's not that big at least I've got cockroaches in all my food it's not in my cereal it's not in my soup and and you just you it's hard but you learn such great lessons of like no you can be happy even when you have those kinds of circumstances because it's not about the apartment or the size of it it's really about you know what's inside what's your relationship with those who love teach your kids that at a young age or even you at that age the years after are going to just be better yeah it's huge it's huge before we jump back in can i ask you a quick favor if you're enjoying the journey so far will you like rate and subscribe to our show it helps us reach more people like you we can design and create and build the most wonderful place in the world but it takes people to make the dream a reality did you become a better lawyer after your divorce 100 how no question i can empathize and understand in a way that i could not have understood before when when you've been through it when you have to co-parent when you've had to go through the emotional battle of getting divorced when you sit across the table from somebody and you're describing you know some things that they should be expecting or you're in mediation with them and helping them understand what things could look like when i have that perspective of having lived it it it changes the way that i can communicate with my clients for sure I'm sure there's a level of empathy as well that you just can't have like if you go to a my divorce lawyer was divorced as well I didn't really think about that till now but I'm sure there's just a level of understanding that is invaluable yeah for sure what is a myth that what is a myth about divorce that when people come in and you know we all come in and we think like our situation is so unique but you probably see the same things over and over what is something that you see over and over when people come in you know I think one of the myths that we see more now is relating to custody one of the myths that still exists is that you know a mom's always going to get custody and in the last 15 years there's there's been a pendulum swing it's not the other direction obviously it's not like dads are getting custody only but balancing out of that of recognizing you know what role a father can play it's interesting in some of the research that's been done in recent years i heard i heard about one one of the major studies that's been done about the involvement of dads in their kids lives so not not in divorce specifically but just in general of like millennial dads in their lives of their kids that it's three to four times as much as the prior generation and so we do see is that dads are being more involved and that's a good thing I think that really benefits our kids and I think that also plays a role into you know recognizing they do need to be involved more maybe maybe it's not going to be 50 50 but it's probably not going to be minimum parent time either you're going to be some kind of joint custody arrangement so I think people come in thinking oh no mom's are always going to get it we have to kind of reset expectations like that's not usually the way it works anymore my ex-husband he you know we got the standard the woman i got legal the majority of it and then he got every other weekend just you know it's thursday and it was maybe a year in and he came to me and he's like i will still pay you what I'm paying you but can we work with this and can i have him 50 50 and I think he waited long enough to show to me that like he was going to follow all the rules and the you know whatever we agreed to he was in but I think that he probably knew when he signed those divorce papers that this was not something he was going to be okay with long term he needed to have them more and we worked on our own we did a good job we did like a two three three two and then we switched to a week to week and we all thrived on it you know it helped all of us but I think that's interesting what you did well there that I think sometimes people don't because it's hard to co-parent which is if you were two three three two and then you switched a week to week what you probably did is decided what was the best for your kids and made the set of kids is different and for some kids like even if it's 50 50 for some kids 2255 or a 2332 sometimes that's better for kids but sometimes a week on week off is better everybody well we tried it for a summer and it was my idea and of course everybody pushed back and i basically said we're going to try it for this amount of time and then we'll all come back together and we'll decide if we want to keep it going and i just knew at their ages I mean they were about 10 and 12 when we got divorced and we were football equipment was getting left at one it was really a logistical thing because everything was getting left everywhere and it felt chaotic and the switching felt like once they were settled it was switching again and by the end of the summer everybody agreed it was good but i learned in that situation week to week yeah yeah kids are way more adaptable than we are but also kids will never choose change and that was what learned in that lesson because of course if I was like we're going to stop doing this plan and we're going to do this plan they're never going to say yeah mom let's do it let's pick a new plan they'll never pick it they want to pick comfort and security we all want that but they're the ones who adapt so well so you almost just have to go into things as a trial let them ease into it and then let them have a voice I think it's very important and that was one thing I didn't always do you know when my kids would i can go to the lawyer and pick what you know my kids would tell me that i hope that's normal Ryan tell me I mean kids say that all the time because kids are smart and they learn what they hear stuff from their kids kids at school or in their family member but they'd come to me like that and it would just kill my ego i would just like oh you think so you know I didn't handle that all the things the right way but the boys would say now they're in college they're friends who have married parents that are living in the same house they're like they have not even gone through anything and they're not going to be ready for the world the same way we are they're vocalizing that even at their young ages where there's a level of maturity that does come from going through divorce as kids and I think we can't go back and change anything but we can learn and take the lessons and reframe it in a way where yeah mom and dad are better as friends and now they're like we can't even imagine you married they say that all the time they're like you guys are so different we could never imagine it yeah okay so after seeing after seeing so many marriages come apart what would you say is a trait that creates a successful relationship in marriage besides communication because we both agree yeah no one's going to stay married if they're not yeah what i would say is it and maybe we you could argue that it's going to be tied to communication but i would say leading with kindness and curiosity because to me kindness just does so much you know and kindness is born of empathy and if if you want to be empathetic for what somebody else is experiencing you've got to be curious about why they're experiencing it and you'd think that in a relationship that you would but people don't they forget to start asking the questions or keep asking the questions like why are you experiencing what you're why why you know where we're at right now why are we struggling like what does it mean for you where does that come from right being really curious and digging down and then truly truly trying to listen not being offended when the answer comes back that maybe you weren't expecting right and in the responses being kind in your responses because it's really easy to have a sharp tongue when somebody criticizes you for something you did or is giving you a feedback that maybe you don't love it's really easy to to have a sharp tongue back but when we can respond with kindness especially for the person we do love I just think it goes so far. You know you talk about losing a really close friend of yours and it's just I mean honestly anybody that's listened to this like I really like I mean it like go and listen to that episode it's a really it's a really good episode to listen to and to learn from. For right now when we think about loss we think about things like that we experience what what's like a major lesson that you took from experiencing loss in the way that you did with such a close friend that that passed away from cancer that you could share with our audiences if they're going through that kind of a really really difficult loss or trauma.

I think I you know when I lost my best friend to cancer and it was just a real I'd never lost any but my grandparents were all still alive I had just never experienced loss so I had to learn to mourn and nobody talks about that or teaches you because it's so personal and there's no guidebook to it everybody's going to go through it in their own way. I think for me I just had to learn that it takes time and that you just can't rush it. I mean I cried I was making that drive back and forth from that one stoplight town up here several times a week and I would just cry in the car that was like my time alone and I didn't have my kids and I'd go to work and then I'd work and come back and I would just let it out and I cried for years and it never got I never missed her any less and I actually talked to my psychic today and she came through so it's so funny that you even wanted to talk about this. I don't know if you believe in psychics but today she was just like I see you and she knows I'm stressed and she wanted to just make sure that I was good she's like I know not a lot of people around you can really see this but I see it so she's still my best friend just on the other side. There's just no rule book the grief is love with nowhere to go and there's just no way through it other than through it and there's no timeline and it's not linear it's going to go up and down but you can learn to take the memories and the lessons and carry them on in a way they're still part of your day-to-day life where they don't they might be here physically but just keep them in your heart for me that's made all the difference because like she's still there she's still somebody I can talk to and who sees me and understands me and maybe she has more influence on over me from her side than here.

I don't know but I wish was here. So I think it just that leads so beautifully into this quote that I found it's by Megan Devine she wrote the book called It's Okay That You're Not Okay and get your take on this quote she said some things cannot be fixed they can only be carried and so how have you seen that? I think when I hear that I think I just picture her boys because I wanted to fix it I wanted to bring their mom back like she was the most exceptional mom and after she was gone her home was never the same and her kids were never the same her family was never the same and I'm a fixer and I want to fix everything but to carry it is to be that happy place as a reminder I remember one of her sons was working at McDonald's in the drive-thru and I would just make sure to give that extra big smile and be so happy to see him because I know when he looks at me he connects me to his mom even though he was so little when she passed and I think that there is just no right or wrong way and just being easy on yourself and knowing that sometimes the lesson is just being able to carry it and to never forget I never want to forget her. Not everywhere can be the happiest place on earth and at RCG Law Group my job outside of our podcast we get that life throws curveballs legal stuff family stuff the things you didn't see coming that's what we're here for if you're dealing with something and don't know where to turn give RCG a call. I think it's a beautiful lesson and you know when we experience grief and loss and pain there can come from a lot of beautiful things eventually they don't necessarily come right away in fact they can come years later right but we all do experience that we all do experience loss to some degree at times you know truth be told I've never lost somebody that was really close to me my grandparents on my mom's side both died when I was relatively young my dad's side my grandma I was a teenager but we weren't super close with her she had some struggles with addiction and such lovely person but had some struggles with it and then my granddad on that side like he was just the most quiet person he had I think it was in the navy in World War II probably carried some trauma from that didn't like to talk about it didn't talk much very very quiet person so when he passed away when I was in my 20s I just didn't know him very well and I've never had somebody super close pass away and it's kind of like I feel like totally unprepared right because when I see and hear about grief that that you carry with best friend I'm like oh man what's what's it going to be like when I do and I kind of get my whole head about it like oh my goodness once somebody really close dies it's going to be so hard I'm just going to fall apart um and that might be true probably will but then sometimes I need to like just remember well it hasn't happened yet I need to live in where I'm at now I need to appreciate the people that I do have and really value the moments that I have with the people that I have now so they'll not always be here I won't always be here but I really have to appreciate the time I have every day is a gift literally every day and it you just want you want to learn while life is good but we only learn through the hard parts and the losses and relationship losses are part of grief altogether and but what is the alternative not loving somebody or not having a close relationship and still like I hope everybody has a best friend the way I have Amberlee and I would never trade anything even all the tears and all the years I would never trade that for my years that I got her and I think you just have to look at it as a blessing like it was such a blessing that I got to experience that 100% 100% um one of the things I wrote down was from um an author a professor that I really like she she wrote a book called uh mindset her name is and so for you what does that mean to you of that the process of becoming is better than just being growth yeah I I wish I sometimes I wish that I didn't grow so fast but I grow really fast it's just I'm a Scorpio I have this like intensity and emotional aspect of me that um craves more experiences and craves new insight and conversations and it's just like mentally stimulating for me and I feel stuck sometimes when I'm not being emotionally stimulated and I think that it's a trade-off because I look at some people and I see they're just happy with their one life and their one house and their one marriage and they're so happy and I'm sometimes that looks easier sure it's just not how I was made and I think just when I went down the journey of learning who I was and really accepting that about me and seeing it's never going to change so Erin you just got to accept it and you just got to roll with it and make it the most it's going to be this big crazy beautiful life and I'm okay and I'm here for it like that's just my life and I'm probably going to live chapters and parts and my big at my funeral you guys are going to have a lot of stories about everything I was up to but that is who I am and I'm not going to fight that so becoming is growth to me and it looks so different for different people and there's no right or wrong way and my friends who are living their same one life they're so happy and that's all that matters but I know they look at me and they probably well one they might think it's it's exhausting to be growing because it is but also I know they're proud of me and they know that that's who I am and instead of fighting it I'm just going to put it into a healthy way and relationships are very important to me that's one thing I want to keep growing and growing my whole life but I want to keep my people close I don't want to outgrow relationships and if you aren't communicating if that's not on your front of your mind you can outgrow relationships but that's a part I want to keep growing but it's important to me to have my home team my home base and these relationships these friendships that I've had a lot of time are important to me and moving forward I want my next partner to be my last partner I want a partner to grow with me and we grow together and it's just this big adventure and that's how I see the rest of my my growing days playing out I love that I was talking with some of the other day and they described this idea of in a relationship that people do grow and it really kind of like shifted my mindset about the way he talked about it's like some people will grow apart and then a relationship ends but good relationships and the best relationships as they grow and they become somebody different they're actually growing together and becoming something different together and continue to fall in love with this new version as they grow together and that's just something that's so beautiful to me I love that that's the goal it actually happened to be Dawson's dad who was on an episode we haven't aired yet and it was just completely flipped the script for me I'm like no it's okay to grow it's okay to be somebody different than when you first got married or you first got in this relationship and it can be a really beautiful thing because you can continue to fall in love with somebody as you grow together it's just like I love that but it takes two people willing to do that because my my ex-husband called my mom crying I want the old Aaron back I just want the old Aaron back and he did because he stayed the same he stayed the same he wanted me to stay the same and it just couldn't happen so if you can find that and set that tone from the where it's like whoever I you know my my final husband is going to look at me and be like I might get 10 more versions of you and I'm here for it and let's just see what what happens and I'm going to grow with you and I'm going to let you be you like that's what I need I I need somebody who has a growth mindset as well or they're just not you know going to keep up with me but I want that in a partner too I want somebody who is evolving and growing and that's where I just haven't found my partner yet because I haven't found a man who I can grow with yeah and you know it and it comes to you when it comes to you because you know ultimately one of the things that I think in relationships we should avoid is maybe something that you were experiencing when when he wanted that which is co-dependency he was co-dependent on you yeah that's that's not makings of a healthy relationship I've heard it described by um there's a marriage and family therapist as interdependency but you have to be able to be independent and then you can depend on each other for things but you have to be able to stand independently and be okay with who you are without each other and then you can truly grow together and make each other better but if you're co-dependent you won't right it's really can be very very damaging right and that was a bit part of our yeah I don't like it I mean I'm not yeah I'm not a marriage therapist and we'll put it right out there but your second I was hearing hallmarks of it I was hearing hallmarks of it yeah okay so you're ready for a fun segment yeah okay we're gonna do a little this or that okay and so look if you have a controversial opinion I'm gonna have to call that on me I have opinions on every good few of them too good okay uh Disneyland or Disney World Disneyland I've been at Disney World since I was a little kid I think I had a trip to take my boys to Disney World and I was gonna spend a fortune it's a little crazy and then I was like why am I taking them to Disney World and because I wanted to take them to see like the real world yeah and yeah so that's kind of the that's me in a nutshell yeah I want to show them things I love it and have good experiences and what the world's really like sunrise or sunset a sunset it's beautiful where's your favorite sunset any beach I'm a water I'm a water sign and I love I feel so connected to water and a sunset over a beach sitting on a patio with a glass of wine can't be beat I when I think of it I think of when I was in Oahu with my wife and we had been along with Waikiki beach and we just found some random place to eat food and we were coming out of it and the sun was setting and it was like the most beautiful thing I could ever imagine it was just like that's heaven right there it was amazing there's something about the sunset I mean I know the sunrise is like the start of a day but just like a deep breath is what a sunset is to me and it's like okay we did it another day yeah I think that's a good I like that a lot quiet night in or night out on the town both I can't have one without the other okay I'm gonna make you choose one probably oh okay okay a week night in weekend out because you like sometimes to lay low I do lay low after work but on a weekend I want to go out okay so I have that's an acceptable answer totally is because I I'm very similar I'm I am not out of the house on a week night there's there's times where yeah I get done with work and all I want to do is like okay I go home the kids are there and I'm definitely gonna like try to like wrestle around with them or engage with them and play with them why don't I want to go anywhere right right like we gonna be in let's just throw on a movie or let's just like play a board game because I do not want to go out yeah some of you yeah there's definitely times where I'm both um okay here's the last this or that texting thread or one long phone call do not call me no one should call me I probably won't even answer I really only answer for a very select few people I would I would deny your call and then text you and say hey how are you I think most people would answer that texting thread or they answer a phone call they would prefer a phone call not me either I'm with you really I don't really like talking on the phone to be honest I wouldn't think people want to talk on the phone I um I'll talk on the phone to my wife and my drive home every day that's like our thing that's our routine it's the way that we get a chance to connect and talk because like before you walk in the door I love that love that but that is it okay anybody else wants talking on the phone I'd rather not to be honest like sometimes other let it go to me Ryan we're talking all day when we get home yeah but if I was sitting at home all day I'd want to talk at night yeah it's just I think that's fair I think that's fair probably yeah you're exactly right because we talk all day it totally makes sense okay here's a rapid fire you ready for these there's okay favorite Disney movie Little Mermaid oh good yeah I mean we all wanted to be Ariel sorry I mean and we all wanted that Prince Eric he's hot for sure I under the sea was like my jam I would as a little Ryan like Sebastian we totally would dance to and sing it we just loved it I mean I think she was probably three and I was five like oh we loved it favorite Disney song part of that world Little Mermaid yeah so good I want to be where the people are that's me unless it's a workday and then I want to be home okay so I know you're not a huge Disney fan however um last weekend was D23 which they do every two years at Disneyland they do a big convention they announce all the upcoming projects movies they announce all the things they're going to do to the parks over the next few years it's a big big deal right one of the things they also do is they award the Disney Legends Award to people that are Disney Legends one of the people they awarded it to was Linton and well Miranda whom I love right Moana and Kanto Hamilton many things in his speech that he gave he took the words from that song and rewrote them a little bit to being like showing gratitude for things that he had happened experiences he had with Disney to part of your world to the Little Mermaid yes it was so lovely it was so it was amazing send it to me and then he he had it written on the inside of his cover of his VHS of Little Mermaid that he had that he had the girl who played Little Mermaid sign it I had to sing I was like this blows my mind this shows your Disney but this is flowing it does it was amazing I'm so glad to be for you I love it um favorite Disney Princess well Belle is Belle a princess she is in that beautiful yellow dress that's exactly why I love I love Beauty and the Beast and I love Belle that was awesome she just wanted to find love and she's smart yeah she'd like to read she liked to use her imagination but she also scared cool scared of the big bad guy like now she's like bring it on she loves a challenge she does favorite Disney hero or heroine Moana I do love Mo I listened to your Moana episode too um Moana was big when I was getting divorced and I felt this like what that opening song I don't remember you remember it where she's with the village and then she like wants to leave so bad what's the song now I can't remember the song either but like her dad singing it she's singing it it's yes where the with the the sea in the sky it calls me I was seeing that song and I was in Hawaii around this time and I was at the beach and I wanted to bring home like a memory of Hawaii it was my first time I stayed at Turtle Bay and I brought it was right before I was getting divorced because I took home this black lava rock from the island and I packed it in my suitcase didn't even think about it went home and then literally Ryan my life blew up and the divorce all went through in maybe six weeks and I was talking to somebody about it or no somebody saw the rock in my office and I was like it's a it's a lava rock and they were like don't you know you never take a lava rock from Hawaii it's like the worst omen ever and I thought back I was like once I took that rock everything went downhill and and then I took the rock and I nailed it to the Turtle Bay and I said please return this to the beach because I cannot have any more bad luck and that was my Moana my my Moana moment because I had a little Moana next to the lava rock yeah and then then it was just Moana she was solo the song that she sings is how far I'll go yes and it is a lovely song because you know as I'm thinking about how it applies to you and we're not talking about Moana this episode but um yeah I think I think to some degree I don't think maybe you realized how far you could go and sometimes a change in life a change in seasons in life is what helps us see that as you go to the horizon as you go and try this new chapter in life what you did right the divorce was something that although hard was necessary for you to grow and become who you were right and Moana needed to leave her island even though it was something even though it's hard right it was hard she had to do that to find out who she really was and what she was really comfortable with so love that love that choice um favorite Disney ride oh I do like I mean I would I was not a horrible mom I took my kids to Disneyland but like once they were past Disneyland I was past it too but grandkids I will take my grandkids ride I love Peter Pan for sure it's too short though you wait in that line and then it's like what three minutes ride that is because it is always a very popular ride the line is always long why can't Peter Pan be as long as it's a small world why can't flip-flop those because it's a small world should be three minutes and Peter Pan should be 20 I mean girl I'm with you it's a it's a small world it's not my favorite there's some people who've been on this podcast and said it's a small world is their favorite ride it's one of my wife's favorite rides and I would rather do without it the only thing it's good for for me boy this is a controversial opinion hopefully I'll offend people is when I nap because it's been a long day and I'm like cool yeah let's go on it's a small world so I can sleep through it and it's cold yes yeah right darl gandos favorite city to visit oh man I'm gonna say Nashville right now I love Nashville so fun I'm not even a country music guy and I love the vibe it's like it's so fun yeah yeah I love me some nash vegas yes oh yeah definitely favorite dog breed I any doodle I have a labradoodle I've had a golden doodle I think any breed with a doodle is special yeah yeah they are fun favorite go-to song to blast in the car um alicia keys girl on fire see I was thinking about I can't sing at all I'm gonna hurt people's ears if I try to sing this girl have you seen um hell's kitchen I know that's the broadway show about her life and has her songs in it no girl I gotta go you gotta I think it's in my seat echoes next year oh totally worth it love it yeah that song is like a mantra song to me music is to me yeah yeah that's not power yeah yeah love that song favorite statement accessory a handbag okay which one um well louis vuitton is what I started with and it's just spread but that's how I reward myself for hard work and every episode of Yes And Land with three actionable takeaways from our guests so aaron what are three things that our listeners could put into effect in their today or this week to help them in this journey that they have and in learning from the things that we talked about today things that came up today um talking about amberly I think it's important to live in the moment and to stop yourself in your tracks when you are feeling that joy and happiness when you're like hell yeah like this is what life's about literally stopping yourself and staying out loud I want more moments like this that's my line more moments like this and just stop yourself and just invite more of that into your life and I think that little thing can help create more and more happiness that's a really good one okay so stop and take a moment and then remind yourself you want more of that more of that bring it on fantastic yeah two more um I think with your views of divorce being divorced and being a divorce lawyer I think you have a lot of wisdom that you probably haven't even shared here but just emphasizing communication in a relationship and it's not just in a partnership with a husband or wife or whatever with your kids with your parents um I think that's one thing parents struggle as they get older and your kids get older and like keeping that communication just being able to communicate in a healthy way with all relationships in your life is something that I think everybody could do a little better yeah totally agree okay and last one maybe I need to go to Disneyland maybe I need to like go get a corn dog on a stick yes that's not okay well I don't even know if what's the best treat churro a churro okay I need a corn dog in one hand because I know where that booth is and I get a churro and I don't even care if I need a ride a ride I'm just gonna eat yeah right well if you're gonna do that you're gonna call me up and we're gonna hang out hi Disneyland can be a really fun place to just chill and relax and if you want to you could lay low no right you could just lay low you're really good I totally would do that and just go for the vibe yeah yeah totally thank you so much for being on with us today what a joy and a pleasure to be with you for all the things that you bring for the vulnerability that you show blessing the lives to those who listen and those who are in your life so thank you so much as you leave this conversation remember that yes the past can hurt and you can either run from it or you can learn from it so here's to learning and finding joy in the journey see you real soon