What did being a perfectionist look like for you? It looked like not disappointing people. Living up to a role that I was told was my role and what I accepted fully as my role. Understanding your value as a person, that it was inherent, right? Much like Mirabelle had to learn, like the gift is me.

Yeah. I don't have to have some other special gift. The gift is like who I am, yeah. I kind of went past the, where you're supposed to go. Past the reef, right?

And it was hard and it was, yeah. No one goes beyond the reef, right? That's what her dad says, right? Like, no, can't do it. She's like, no, I got it.

When I self-abandon, I feel anxious and angry, but it's because I'm not being myself, I'm not being true to myself. This time I'm thinking I have something to offer and I can help. Having people be angry with me isn't as devastating as it used to be. Welcome to Yes, An Land, where we say yes to the reality of yesterday and today, and we say and to the possibility, growth and imagination of tomorrow. Well, welcome everybody to our next episode of Yes, An Land.

Very excited about our guest today, Angie White, with Jolley's Corner and COO over there. That's your role, correct? That's right. Which is pretty awesome. And she's also very humble and doesn't wanna take any praise for it, but you don't get to be a role like that somewhere without having exceptional skills.

And I wanna talk with her today about her journey to get there and what it looked like to overcome some trials and overcome some things in her life, working through things like failures or self-doubt and people that helped you along the way, because we never do things alone, right? And we're gonna talk about a few different movies today. It's gonna be a good time. We're gonna talk about Mulan, which is one of my faves. Absolutely love Mulan.

Whenever we talk about favorite Disney heroes, she is pretty high on my list. She's pretty amazing. It's very rewatchable, that movie, for me as well. Watched it with my kids not too long ago and just loved it. We're also gonna talk about Inconto, which actually is my favorite Disney movie.

I know it's recently biased, Angie. It totally is, but I love it. I think it's mine too. It's so good. And who knows?

We might go some other paths too. We might talk about some other characters. We might even talk about Moana. Who knows? We're gonna see where it takes us.

I'm a big Disney fan. Good, this'll be great then, because so am I. We'll enjoy our Disney nerddom as we talk today. And so one thing I wanted to ask you about, we talked a little bit in the pre-show about, but tell me about this house in Florida you have and what view you have. Okay, we feel really lucky.

And we didn't buy it for this, but it's on a lake and at night you can see the Magic Kingdom fireworks from the back patio. Unbelievable. That is so cool. I saw some memes. So we're recording this just after July 4th and I saw some memes leading up to July 4th that just made me laugh where it was like, July 4th is when you go enjoy all your local fireworks, but you think, nah, it's not Disney.

I was like, I do love fireworks, but there's something about watching a Disney fireworks show, especially if you can hear the music. And we can't, but we can see them. But it reminds you of probably what that is. When you're actually in the park, seeing it, watching the projections they do on the castle, that whole production, magical of course. It is, yep.

Okay, so I wanna kind of roll it back and talk a little bit about young Angie. And one of the things that you've mentioned as we've talked in the past is, maybe you were a little bit of a perfectionist. Yes. So tell me what that looked like when you were grown up. What did being a perfectionist look like for you?

It looked like not disappointing people and kind of living up to a role that I was told was my role and what I accepted fully as my role. And I think because I get embarrassed easily and I don't like to, I get my face goes red. And so I really was trying to avoid embarrassment, but also I'm a high achiever. I wanna achieve things, set goals. And so my perfectionism was more, I set good goals, like high achieving goals.

I've run marathons. And I kind of use this as an example, I don't win marathons, but I run them. And the reason I did that is because you can follow a schedule, I'm disciplined. You can follow a schedule and do the training. And if you do that, you'll run a marathon and I'm a firm believer in that.

You do the training, I would never show up and not prepare. And so that's something I'm not afraid of hard work. I'm not afraid of discipline and setting my mind to something, which could be a good goal. And then achieving that goal, but I would never say I should win a marathon. You know, cause that's a little too high.

But does that make sense? It does. So I mean, and it leads to my next question, which is, when you have perfectionism, I do think it's one of those traits that is a blessing and a curse at times. In what ways do you feel like, especially in your younger years, did any of that perfectionism hold you back from something? And that's exactly where I was held back because I wouldn't set goals that I could fail at.

So I wanted to be a nurse at one point and I started college and started the prerequisites to become a nurse. And it was a really competitive field to get in to the program where I was attending school. And instead of saying, well, I'm gonna do this and there's a chance I could fail, I just changed my mind to what I was gonna do. I decided not to do it and pursue that because what if they don't accept me to the program? Then I failed.

And that's where my perfectionism held me back. I didn't choose goals that I could fail at. What was it about failure that held you back? What was it you worried about with that? I think it would say something about my worth, ultimately.

That it would say that I'm not good or, because I had a lot of self-doubt. Sure. And I'm a competitive person, strangely enough, but I think it was just all about my worth. It would say, well, you're not smart enough. You're not good enough.

In reviewing some things, kind of preparing for this episode, I went back and looked at some scenes in Kanto. And there's a few that apply here, but we'll kind of take some of them one by one. I wanna get your kind of take on some of these. And there's one that's right at the beginning, right? You have the song, the family madrigal, which is just such a fun song, right?

Part of it's the genius of Lin-Manuel Miranda that he needs to introduce all these characters, but he does so in classic Lin style of the way that he does the song. And you just feel like it's just an amazing song. And yet really what they're doing is just setting the stage for whoever it is, so you understand, because it's a big old family. There's a lot of characters to navigate in the show. And it's so brilliant.

So at the end of this song, right? They're getting to the point where all these kids wanna know what her gift is, right? And somebody's coming to bring some stuff, a townsperson is coming to bring some stuff for this big party they're gonna have. And that kind of is revealed that she doesn't have a gift. And this is kind of the exchange, right?

The kid, one of the kids says, you didn't get a gift? And there's a couple of other exchanges back and forth. And then another kid says, if I was you, I'd be really sad. And she says, well, my little friend, I am not, because the truth is, gift or no gift, I am just as special as the rest of my family. And then the kid says, maybe your gift is being in denial.

Like, oh, it's brutal, right? Right from the get-go, it's brutal. And really she's just masking at this stage. I mean, you can really see that in reality, she didn't fully embrace that and believe that. And so what's kind of your take here on this, this journey that Mirabel is experiencing with feeling less than or feeling like, she's kind of the one on the outside because she can't do what other people in her family can't do.

Yeah, I relate to that. I have, at a young age, you're kind of comparing yourself to this small circle you have. So your siblings, your friends, and I have really impressive siblings. I remember my dad would say certain things about each sibling. And I had something he said about me, but it wasn't something I, I wanted to be the smart one.

I wanted him to say, oh, you're so smart. I wanted him to focus on other things, not what he focused on. And my dad's a great dad, but this is something I realized as I got older. And then even my friends, they're, you know, you think about all your friends and the things that they're incredible at. Maybe they're in the gifted and talented program.

Again, it all comes down to wanting to be smart, I think, for me. And I think I am, but I was kind of, that's a quality I really admire in people is just, you know, someone who's really good in school or whatever. And so I think that that's what I could relate to with her is just looking around, seeing all these impressive people and thinking, oh, that's not me. Maybe focusing more on what I'm not than what I am. Because that's what she did, right?

Because in one of the songs that comes after that, you know, she sings a song that she's waiting on a miracle, right? She's like talking about all these things that her family does that are so amazing. She's like, I'm just over here waiting. Like, where's my gift? Where's my miracle?

Like, why is it just me? And she hasn't at that point in time in the show understood at all what her true worth is, right? And so it's holding her back and her ability to step into that power because she has it, it's there, right? And it's later revealed in the show that she of course does. But then it's also just creating a lot more friction with her and her siblings too, right?

Like what he said, like creates lots of friction there. So, you know, when we look at, you know, this idea that failures can, the idea of a failure can really hold us back. It's kind of this fear of a failure and fear of being good enough. One of the things that I was looking at with this as well is a quote from Brene Brown. Oh, I love Brene.

Right, she's amazing. And, you know, and it's a little bit more in the line of like, rather than like who we are, also like taking a look at like what our actions are and what actions we take. And one of the things that she said, this is a really famous thing that she said from Daring Greatly, she said, guilt means I did something bad. Shame means I am bad. And how many times do we unfortunately fall into that idea of shame, right?

Like I am bad as opposed to like, I did something bad, right? Feel guilty for that, I should, right? I did something that's wrong, but it's not who I am, right? And so when you're experiencing during kind of your grownup years and this idea of kind of holding yourself back a little bit for the fear of failures, did you ever battle with that a little bit of like, trying to avoid shame, not feeling like you were a bad person, not feeling like you were less than, was that anything you ever had to kind of combat or battle? Oh yeah, yeah, I was a very obedient child.

I followed every rule. I wouldn't guess, that's what I was guessing, yeah. Can I even tell people as an adult, I am such a rule follower. Someone was trying to get me to break a rule, I'm like, are you trying to get me to do this? And I send the sweating face emoji and she's like, well, you know, it was just really funny.

And I, like even to this day, I'm just such a rule follower. I'm not going to break a rule because I do, I would think I am bad, yeah. And how do you navigate the difference there though between like, doing the right things and following the rules is good, right? It's not bad to do that, that's actually a good thing. But doing it because it's who you are as opposed to the avoidance of shame for doing it.

Yeah, and I think too, there's an element of conformity. And I really, I tell people that are rule breakers, I'm like, I am impressed. I am impressed with safe rule breakers, right? And so there's this part of me, especially as a child and growing most of my adult life too, I have been, I've conformed, I've followed the rules, I've tried to live up to everyone's expectations of me. And my evolution, and when I was doing that, there's a level of safety.

For sure. But there's also some self abandonment that I didn't realize until after I started not conforming as much and not making it where I had to please everybody. And having people be angry with me isn't as devastating as it used to be if I'm confident in my decision, right? Like I don't want to rile anyone up, but I also, I want to stand up for myself or what I think should be stood up for. And that doesn't make people happy, especially when you've always been a conformer.

Absolutely. And so that was probably a hard thing. What was your inflection point for that? What was the experience you had, if you could point to one, where that really started to turn for you? Where you could worry a little bit less about what somebody else thought and just do more of what you thought was the right thing and what you wanted to in that situation.

Yeah, it was very gradual, but then when you look back, you can kind of see signs pointing to it. And I would feel very angry. I would feel trapped. But I also wanted to be a sweet person or a good girl, or you know, there's all these things that I, it was such a conflict of, I think I'm a wild, like I am always trying to capture and bring back this, I always think of eight-year-old me. And she had frizzy red hair.

Maybe I was five or six, actually. I was younger probably. And frizzy red hair and running around the neighborhood, bossing everyone around, telling everyone what we're doing. And people were following me. And I had a strawberry shortcake swimsuit.

Like this is who I conjure up in my mind when I'm trying to be brave. Because I pushed that little girl down. When I started to feel embarrassment and shame and needing to follow rules and conform, I abandoned. I think we hear about that a lot. I don't think that's unusual.

And so I carried that, you know, into my teenage years, well into adulthood where I had this, I have this wildness in me. But when I ignore it, I call it self-abandonment now. And when I self-abandon, I feel anxious and angry. But it's because I'm not being myself, not being true to myself. And I've had to learn that that doesn't mean stepping on people or being mean or, you know.

Sure. There's a way to be yourself and also be respectful of others. You know, it's so interesting. I love where you're going with this. I just think there's a lot that people can relate to with that and the idea of like it's self-abandonment when you don't, when you're just doing it to conform.

You know, when we look at, well, there's some other things too. So one of the things I want to ask you about too is this idea of failure. And at some point in time in your life, you had to, I'm sure make the decision that like, I'm going to still take a risk even though I might fail on this. Yeah. Right.

And tell me how you grappled with that. How did you come to the decision or conclusion in your life that you were willing to fail in things and not worry about what everybody else was saying or thinking and not feel shame for it, for failing on it? What did that look like? It was also gradual. And I was offered an opportunity to start a business.

And it was, I felt really honored to be asked, but this person felt like I had the right skills to start this with her. And we just took it a step at a time. And we were putting a little money in here and there. And my husband would say, okay, it's, you know, you still in this? I'm like, yeah, I'm not ready to give up.

And then we started having successes and it wasn't success after success. There were a lot of failures, but from this person I learned, you don't, a failure doesn't mean you give up. And I brought up another movie, Meet the Robinsons. Yes. And I love that you keep moving forward and maybe you find another, maybe this is your goal and you were trying to get on path A, but let's try path B or C.

And then maybe you work your way through the whole alphabet. But if you know that's where you want to go, you keep trying. And for this business, it actually did really well. And I gradually started seeing things in me that this business partner saw in me, that I had certain skills. And again, it was just a gradual realization.

I would never say I have an ego to where I'm like, oh, I've got this. But I started to see, oh, I do have some skills. I do have some abilities here that I didn't know I had. And then I just started thinking, well, what else is there that I didn't know about me? Cause I was always conforming.

And the life as I was conforming is a life I love too. It doesn't mean it's a bad life. It's just, I was never told you could do both. And now I was doing both. And fully supported by my family and my husband and building relationships and having opportunities to the point where I did think, well, at some point, if this does fail, I've learned a lot and I'm really proud of what I've done.

And like you said, along the path, not everything was a success after success after success. There were certain things that were failures. And Carol Dweck wrote a book called The Growth Mindset, which I love, it's a fabulous book. And in there, she says, in the growth mindset, failure can be a painful experience, but it doesn't define you. It's a problem to be faced, dealt with and learned from.

And so what you had to find, I would assume, would be that growth mindset as opposed to a fixed mindset, which is I don't wanna fail, I might fail, but I can't fail, so I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna take that step. And then you found a way to shift that paradigm to a growth mindset of embracing like, okay, these things might fail. Were there any failures that you had that you drew strength from realizing that you could overcome it? You could take that and learn from it and grow from that failure?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I can think back on specific conversations with employees that I just think, I would do that differently, and then I do it differently. I learn from it. Or I mean, as a parent, you do that every single day. And so, yeah, for sure.

Those are the things that really stick out or just maybe things that, how I might've handled a situation. Yeah. And one of the things that I think we sometimes forget when we talk about these things is like, we can look at failure as an opportunity, right, to learn. It doesn't mean it's not hard. Yeah.

Like, failing's not fun. Maybe some people can look at it as fun. And I do like Meet the Robinsons because they make it a fun event when it was like, yeah, he fails in this thing he tried to create and they all celebrate, right? And I love that idea, but in practical, like day-to-day life, failing sometimes really stinks. I've had plenty of experiences where, clearly not working out with an employee, do everything that I can.

Clearly, I could have done things better and then you have to part ways and it stinks. I don't know what your experience is, but firing somebody is like one of my least favorite things that I ever have to do. It's just awful. I hate it. Yeah, it keeps you up at night.

Yeah. Because you learn to care about people, whether they're the right person there. And it's, yeah, that's really difficult. I don't think you ever would get used to that. Yeah.

I mean, for some reason, some people do and they embrace it and they love it. Not me, not you, sounds like. But it is, every time it happens, it is an opportunity to kind of take a look at it. Now, I do think it's also important in those situations and I love your take on this and your experience with this, but not to observe the things that that person did wrong. It wasn't entirely your fault for them needing to be let go, but just assessing what you can do differently.

Was that ever hard? Did you ever look at it like, oh my gosh, this is completely my failure, they got let go, and then realize like, no, actually it wasn't. I had a role, but so did they. Yeah, yeah, I think so. Just maybe they didn't get coached enough.

Another thing we always try to do, we would say they're maybe just not on the right seat on the bus. Yeah, Jim Collins, good to gray, look at you. You're drawing on some classic stuff right there. We would, and one of my biggest joys is knowing that person belongs on the bus and finding the right seat for them. And sometimes that's, I mean, that's actually one of the most satisfying things in owning a business that I, and people will ask me, what's the thing, what's the hardest thing about owning a business?

And I would say the people. And then the best thing are the people. You learn the most. But if I couldn't find the right seat on the bus for them, that's hard. Yeah, it's super hard.

At some point in time, the business y'all started was obviously very small, right? All businesses start out that way. And that's where it's also sometimes hard because the size of the business might mean there's just not another seat at that stage, right? Like this person could be a really great person and have a skillset, but the bus you have right now, it just doesn't have a lot of seats. And that's tough, and that's tough.

And then trying to have that conversation with somebody too about that and trying to help them understand, like I understand you do have great skillsets without them feeling like you're just being phony. I struggle with that a little bit sometimes. You wanna be sincere. I'm not giving false praise, right? But I do want them to understand and know, there are some things you do well, we just don't have that right now here, which is tough.

Yeah, it's really hard. So, okay, coming back to this perfectionism thing. So another quote from Encanto. You ready for this? Yeah.

This is when Isabella and Mirabel are having a conversation, right? They're talking and Mirabel's trying to understand how she's supposed to repair this relationship with her sister because she comes to realization from Bruno's vision that she's supposed to, right? That's the key to fixing Casita and the miracle, right? Not having to kind of go out. And Mirabel says to Isabella that she's selfish, right?

She's kind of like, she's just like mad at her. Oh, you're just selfish. Because you have the perfect life. Yes, exactly, because you do have the perfect life. And Isabella says, selfish?

I've been stuck being perfect my whole entire life. And literally the only thing you have ever done for me is mess things up. And so it's suddenly like in this moment, it's like, oh my goodness, she is way deeper than you thought. She is not this perfect princess that Mirabel was saying she was, that she's really just been doing things for everybody else. And she's been self abandoning, right?

Yeah. And in Encanto, what do you think it took for her to overcome that? And how is that paralleled for you and your life? Probably the misunderstanding of who she really is. Like she has to put out this perfect persona, everything's fine.

And then for some reason, she let that guard down. I mean, not for some reason, she let it down because she's being told your life is perfect and she's thinking, this isn't perfect to me. Absolutely. And it's that breaking point. And I remember similar things in my own life where I'm like, it looks this way, but it isn't.

I know inside it's not. And then at some point something has to give, right? And one of the most beautiful parts of that movie, I think, and that's why it's hard for me to, I can relate to almost most of those characters, honestly, especially the three sisters. But I think for her, when she was just able to be herself, it was a little messy, but it was beautiful and colorful. It wasn't this perfect, the most perfect flowers that are, it was brighter and more vibrant.

And that I think is where I relate to her, is that finally just, I still wanna be a certain part of me. This is still a part of me, but there's another part that I'm not showing to people, and even for myself showing. And it is a little more colorful. It's a little messier. It's not as perfect, right?

Absolutely. And I think one of the things that's really beautiful in this story, the way that it's told, is the role that Mirabel plays in helping Isabella realize that. Yeah. Right, and in that song, what else can I do? Because to some extent, that release, she was just waiting for that to come out.

She just needed permission. Yeah. She just needed permission, and I think that's where you really start to see again the gifts that Mirabel has to help her family see their value beyond just their gift. Yeah. And their value beyond just doing pretty flowers all the time.

Their value beyond, Louisa having to always just be strong for everybody. And the burden of having that gift that everyone relies on and expects from you without being able to just be yourself sometimes. The whole time gets to be herself, and that's beautiful, but it feels bad. It's just a really beautiful story. And I do think that part of the reason why it works so well is like you pointed out, it's like you can see things in the main characters that apply to all of us, right?

For anybody that's ever dealt with perfectionism, Isabella's fantastic, but the same thing with Louisa, someone who's ever felt like it always rests on their shoulders. They're always the one who had to carry everybody else's burdens, and they can't show any cracks. They can't show any weaknesses, because they have to be strong for everybody else. I think moms have to experience that a lot. You're a mom, right?

Yes, I'm a mom. Four kids. Four kids, I was gonna say. I'm pretty sure it's four. Four.

Maybe all over 20? Yeah, my youngest is 21. My goodness. Yeah. But I think a lot of times moms have to carry that, or they feel like they have to carry it, and then now they don't.

But I feel like they have to carry it for the whole family. They have to hold it together for the whole family. I mean, mom guilt's a real thing, right? Oh, yeah. I've heard so many women doing what I do, right, which is divorce, talk about that.

Like, oh, I gotta go to work, or I gotta go back to work, and feeling mom guilt for that, because they've held the family together for so long, like Louisa, right? Being strong for everybody all the time, doing everything for everybody all the time. Did you ever experience that as a mom? Well, I think it's a little, I'll just tell you what mine was, and then we'll just dive in therapy-wise. Let's do it.

You're all here for it. I was a stay-at-home mom, and I got to do that. And I was really, that's what I wanted to do. Yeah, blessing, right? And I did the whole thing, where I got married pretty young, I had kids pretty young, and I had all four of my kids by the time I was 29.

My oldest is 29, which is so wild to think about. And, but this is where, this is that little bit of, this isn't what inside that eight-year-old strawberry shortcake wild hair girl probably would have done, if I'd had more options in my life. I would have loved to be told, you can be a mom and explore life out here. And so what was happening in, and again, it's just looking back, because I have a really beautiful life that I would never, ever want to change. But I had a lot of built-up feelings toward, like, and I didn't realize it, but it's maybe where we go to Moana.

I just felt a little, and she's on this beautiful island, but she sees that there's more out there. The thing is, is I, it was that opportunity with that business that I really was given this opportunity to step out of that role, continue to do it, which I loved, but then explore. I kind of went past the, where you're supposed to go. Go past the reef, right? And it was hard, and it was, yeah.

No one goes beyond the reef, right? That's what her dad says, right? Like, no, can't do it. She's like, no, I got it. Yeah, and she did it.

And the nice thing in my life is when I did that, when I felt called to do that and felt brave to do it, I had the support of my family. And so that's where I just think, the mom guilt didn't come in, because, I mean, you know, you mess up your kids. While I'm home with the kids, you know, you yell, you lose your cool, but, and then you feel bad and all of that. So yes, definitely had mom guilt, but maybe in a different way. But once I was exploring and learning about myself, I really loved it.

I really loved it. And my kids loved it too. Turns out they loved me being this brave person, doing something that I didn't believe I could do. Before we jump back in, can I ask you a quick favor? If you're enjoying the journey so far, will you like, rate, and subscribe to our show?

It helps us reach more people like you. We can design and create and build the most wonderful place in the world, but it takes people to make the dream a reality. I mean, it's a great example of your kids, of your four kids, boys and girls, what's the next? Three girls and then a boy. It's the thing about for those three girls, right?

Hey, my mom went and did this thing. Yeah. Like she realized that she could be a great mom and also do something that she feels called the do, do something in business. Yeah, and my conversations with my kids are different than what mine were. And I don't, nobody's to blame.

I'm not mad at anyone. It was just the narrative I grew up in, you know? But, and I placed on myself truly. But I say to my kids, you can have it all. You can get married if you want.

You don't have to get married. You can have kids. You don't have to have kids. You can build a career. If you have kids and want to stay home, that's beautiful.

And you know, like I want all the options to be there for them so that they really can see that. Because that's the one thing I lacked was that, and I know it sounds so dumb, but it really is like, this is your path and it's a beautiful path. And that was the only option I was given. So it was really beautiful when I was given an opportunity to go past the reef and learn about myself. And if we take a look at it through the lens of Mulan as well, right?

Yes. You know, Mulan has these expectations of what she's supposed to do. She's probably not a perfectionist, right? She does mess up things a lot, but she's kind of, there's this prescripted path that she's supposed to have. She's supposed to go, you know, get all dolled up and go have a husband chosen for her and all these things.

Pour the tea perfectly. Yes. Right? Find a husband. And yet she's called to something else.

And she's called to it by really not a lot of choices, just to save her dad, right? Like she believes in something bigger and greater than doing the perfect thing that everybody else thinks that she's supposed to do. And she does what she believes is right, right? And now she doesn't have a lot of support, unfortunately. Right?

Right. And so she goes down this path, but being forced into it, for you, what do you see that she kind of learns in that journey going down this path of like stepping into something because she's compelled to, as opposed to somebody giving it to her? Yeah. I mean, she learns that, you know, you kind of think of those learning to do the battle, the battle scenes and the training and all of that. She's not as coordinated.

She's always behind. But then this bigger cause inspires her and she works hard and does it. That's right. She has the discipline. Yeah, the discipline.

She had that discipline where she ends up surpassing all of these guys because she's got this discipline and this focus on what's the purpose behind what she's doing. Yeah. She just had never had the opportunity to do that. But once she did, she showed that she could do it. And I think she showed too that she was, what's the right word I'm looking for?

Ingenuitive is not the right word, but like that she was able to think of things and think through problems that other people couldn't and didn't. Yeah. Right? When the Huns had slaughtered the majority part of the army they had, and now they're trying to fight this huge army, she's the one that figures out what to do, causes avalanche because she's thinking outside the box. She, at this point in time, has stepped into that power that she has to create something different, much like Isabella was, right?

Yeah. And do something that for that point in time saves the army and then does it again once they try to take the emperor. Yeah. She figures out how to help save the emperor and by doing so save all of China. So I think there's some great parallels there too for what we see in when somebody is given the opportunity and Hershey kind of takes it, but given that opportunity to step into something different.

And so for you, you're kind of given this opportunity for this new business, this new venture. What do you think are the biggest things that you learned about yourself through that experience of starting a business? So starting a new one or the first one? Starting the first one. The first one.

I learned that I can be innovative. And you can, because I didn't go to business school and I don't have an MBA. So I don't know the textbook answers or here's, and there's probably not a real answer to everything. But I think I went into it with no knowledge, but what I figured out is a process that, one of my main, I had a lot of responsibilities and so did my business partner. When you're only two people, you just kind of take on a lot, right?

But mine was a lot of the operations and I needed to order product. And I figured out, like, I could go on and on about that, but basically I didn't know how to do it. I didn't know there were programs. I didn't know there were things you could do to make it easier. I did it the hard way, but it was because that's all I knew.

And I figured it out, but what that did was teach me the process and exactly why you do things. And then I also learned the value of the phrase, you fake it till you make it. There's value in that. Totally. And I learned that.

I learned that you can figure things out. You can figure things out without the degree. And so I learned that there were not very many obstacles that you can't overcome. And then if you can't overcome it, maybe that's not the way you're supposed to go, or you just try to go around it and do it a different way. There's a lot of ways to tackle a problem.

Totally. And to do that, though, you had to find, I'm sure, a little bit more of that self-esteem and self-worth, to have the confidence to do that. Because otherwise, if something wasn't working, that could totally paralyze you, cripple you. Yeah, well, when I'm watching Meet the Robinsons and he fails, his invention fails, he kind of gets stuck and he's like, well, he gives up a little bit, right? And that would have been me.

And maybe in the beginning, that was me. But sometimes when you've got more than just yourself writing on something, you're a little like Mike Mulan. You have that motivation to figure it out and get there. So another quote I wanna run by. This is from one of my favorites, Jamie Kern Lima.

And she says in her book, Worthy, self-confidence is the belief in your abilities as a person. Self-worth is the belief in your value as a person. I like that. So for you, where did that lie in understanding your value as a person, that it was inherent, right? Much like Mirabel had to learn.

The gift is me. I don't have to have some other special gift. The gift is like who I am. How did that come to light for you and what did that feel like? Man, I think that'll probably be something I have to remind myself of my whole life.

But I think as you go through certain trials and see how you respond and grow, that just naturally happens. But I don't know that I'll ever figure that out fully. Well, I do think it's, and that's okay. Yeah. Right, I think though knowing that and reminding yourself of that over time is very helpful.

Yes. Because it is easy to get down on ourselves when we do have something that doesn't work. Or we have people that doubt us. Or we have conflict with other people. It's easy to think that we're not enough and that we're not good enough.

Yeah, and I think what I've learned is it's okay to feel the feelings. You're gonna feel really, really low, really, really angry. And then you just say, okay, that's what it was and then you move forward. You just, you know, like, maybe there is something you can learn from it. Maybe you're totally misunderstood and not, you know, you haven't been treated well.

And then you, and that's okay. Honestly, sometimes life isn't fair, right? And you just, what do you do now? What's ahead of you now? Let's keep moving forward.

And that's gotten me through some hard things. For sure. Yeah. And you know, on that note of keeping moving forward, one of the things that you've done recently is open a new chapter. Yeah.

Started at a new place. Yeah. In the COO role. What would you say is maybe the biggest lesson you've learned from starting this new chapter, right? There's certain lessons you had when you all started that business.

And now there's probably new lessons you have as you're transitioning to a new opportunity. What's maybe some of the biggest lessons you've learned from that? It's been a really great opportunity to look back and appreciate where I am now. I think that's the biggest thing. And just, like, that's a big thing.

I came into this new opportunity and had some doubts in myself, but then just dug in. It's that whole thing. Like, I can't let the past hold me back. Let's just move forward and be grateful for what I have, really. And it's interesting how quickly my mindset changed so quickly.

But I think it's healthy to feel the feelings. Yeah. Because they're valid. And then you move on. And now it's with excitement.

But there's risk. There's uncertainty. But the things I believe in are, I believe in this business, I believe in the people, and the why behind this business. And so with my first opportunity, I was in that for 15 years. And I learned a lot.

But what this new opportunity is doing for me is really highlighting what I learned. Because I'm coming in and there's things that were just kind of the norm, the day-to-day. And now it's not, and it's nothing against, I mean, the people here are wonderful, wonderful, smart people. And they're just, it's kind of in the early stages of where we were with my first business. I remember those days.

And you're just putting out fires. You're just trying to survive. And that's where they are. And so I've been able to come in and say, well, here's some things that we can help with. And I'm realizing, okay, I do know what I'm doing.

And it's exciting. And I don't know everything. I will never think I know everything. But I have something to offer. And that's the difference.

I think this time I'm thinking, I have something to offer and I can help. Where before I wasn't quite sure about that. For sure. And when you're in a role that you're in, as a COO, you're obviously gonna have a lot of people that report to you directly, that you manage. How do you coach your people when they're experiencing self-doubt or the fear of failure?

I talk to them, like I would want someone to talk to me back in my teenage, early adulthood. I would want them to say, it's okay to fail. You figured it out. I don't want anyone, I would never shame a person for failing. What did we learn from it?

Let's not make that mistake again if possible. And it's just a whole, it's a learning. I recently read, well it was a few years ago, but Adam Grant has a book and it's all about being a scientist and showing curiosity. And I think it's called Think Again. And it's just, it's so refreshing.

And that's how I try to talk to people. How can we think of it differently? Adam Grant's one of my favorites, for sure. And I do think that curiosity, especially as a leader, when the people in your charge do mess up or make a mistake, but being curious about why, about how it happened, I think it goes a long way into building that relationship too. Yeah, I wanna be a safe person.

As their leader, I wanna coach and guide not micromanage, not do the work for them. I wanna remove obstacles that I can to help them be their best self. So another quote to read for you. And we kinda talked about it, we just referenced it briefly, but I just, I love it so much. And so I'm gonna read it to you and I'm gonna not cry when I do it, okay?

So it's at the end when they're rebuilding the casita, right? And the gifts are all gone. Nobody's got their gift anymore. And Mirabelle's really starting to realize like what she brings to the table. And then the song goes, just one more thing before the celebration.

We need a doorknob, we made this one for you. We see how, mm, told ya. I cried. We see how bright you burn. We see how brave you've been.

Now see yourself in turn. You're the real gift, kid. Let us in. I just think it's such a beautiful way of kind of coming full circle for them all to embrace her. And to me that's kind of why, it's also why the importance of people in our lives that will do that for us and that we do for them.

Because she had supported so many of them in helping them step into their power and then they in turn help her. I think it's so beautiful. Okay, so the first kind of fun segment we're gonna do is this or that. So it's just whichever one you think, out of these two. And if it's a controversial opinion, we will call you out, Anthony.

We will call you out. No, we won't. We won't. Okay, now first one, flowers or cacti? Flowers.

Yeah, totally fair, right? Like it's probably an easy one. Even though I love Isabella with the cacti, but you know, it's flowers. Singing or dancing? Singing.

Okay. Singing or playing the piano? Playing the piano. Okay, I had a hunch. Based on our pre-show, I was like, pretty sure it might be playing the piano.

Yeah. Okay, it's totally fair. The singing part would be with a choir, not alone. So. Do you ever sing alone?

You ever sing a solo? I have, but it's not my strength. No, it's not your favorite. Are you good at it? You just don't love doing it?

I think I'm average and I don't love the attention. I kind of love. Ah, yes. That's why I like the piano because I'm a part of something, but then I'm kind of hidden. So.

Sure. An essential component. Yeah. And yet you don't have to be front and center. Which I actually think is such a, I mean, I'm gonna take this back.

I'm gonna detour for a second. I do think it's such an important thing that people understand more about when you're looking at leadership in a business or an organization, which is that difference between, sometimes what we call them, and we had a conversation about this, which is that the visionary and the integrator. Because it's essential to have both. It's essential for both to value the other and understand what that is. Because you don't have to be front and center to have immense impact on an organization.

Right, in fact, Adam Grant, speaking of him, talks a lot about that. Like sometimes it's actually the person who's more quiet, who actually has more to say. And we should probably listen to him more often. Yeah, I remember him saying that. Yeah.

And I'm with it. I think he's right. I think he's right. Okay, sorry. I had to detour.

That's okay, I love it. I forgot to talk about that. I love it, yeah. It came to my mind and I just had to circle back. Okay.

Making crafts or working in the garden? Crafts. The craft gal, not a big garden gal. I love grandma hobbies. Okay.

I love all the grandma hobbies. You like crochet and knit? Yeah, I just learned to crochet. I don't know how to knit, but that's on the radar. Okay.

I love to quilt, cross stitch. My 10 year old daughter is learning how to crochet. Oh yeah. In fact, when I left this morning and I was telling her goodbye, she was on her bed and she's like, got this book and she's like, do it and I'm like, all right, girl, get it. Girl, learn how to crochet at 10.

Yeah, it's really fun. Okay, river or lake? Lake. I assume so. Once I learned that like you got a house on a lake, I'm like, it's gotta be the lake.

It's a lake. It's gotta be the lake. Yeah. Okay, fair. Physical book or audio book?

Okay, I'm strange. I'm always reading three. I always have a physical and audio and a Kindle. I'm always in three books. Oh wow.

Because there's always an opportunity to, like my Kindle's when I'm trying to, you know, fall asleep and it's dark and audio is if I'm out walking and I just like a physical. I'll never give up on physical books. So if I had to choose physical. Okay, if you had to choose, that's what it would be. I have fully given up on physical books.

Yeah, and I get it. Oh, and I can't go back. But I've always been a reader. And there's just nothing that makes me more happy than a library or a bookstore. I do, there is something fun about a library.

I mean, I grew up going to, my dad's a school teacher and so we would go to the library all the time. There is something to that. I'm also just lazy and like holding it open and like you're sitting there trying to lay in bed and you're like, you know, phone on your face. Yeah, that's why the Kindle can be nice, right? So you just do all three.

That's right, I like the idea of all three, it's great. Okay, beach or mountains? Mountains, yeah. Okay, that surprises me. I was thinking you were gonna go beach.

Tell me more. I get sunburned. Okay. And I get a little bored. Yeah, that's true.

I get a little bored. I want like a half a day on the beach. But that's, Oregon's great. Then you get a little both, but it's kind of cold too. It's not as hot, but it's not as easy to get burned either because it's not that searing heat.

The UV's not quite so high. Oregon coast is beautiful though, oh my goodness. You're on the beach with the mountains right there. It's beautiful. I'm assuming Cannon Beach is one you've been to as well there, which is just phenomenal.

Have you been to Astoria? Yeah, we stayed there. Goodness. The cutest city. I'm gonna talk about that.

It is the cutest city. It's just like it's right out of a movie. And it literally is. It is out of a movie. Right, out of Goonies and Kindergarten Cop.

Oh, I didn't know that one, okay. But it's also like that's why because it's just that way. It's just this like picturesque little town. Yeah, yeah. Love it.

Okay, soda or dirty soda? Dirty soda. Oh, you're a dirty soda gal. Okay, what's your dirty soda of choice? Usually if I do it, I'll get the neither a Diet Coke or a Diet Dr.

Pepper with lime and coconut. Just not very. It's a good combo. Kind of basic, but I love it. When I go to like Swig or these places, I usually just get the soda.

And I'm like, why am I here? I know. It's because somebody else is. I'm like, I guess I'll go and I'll pay twice as much for just getting the soda. Do you know my favorite thing though?

They have water like it's a strawberry breeze. That's my favorite. Really? Yeah, it's water with coconut and little strawberry. That's kind of what I get.

So I don't drink as much soda, but just because this is so good. That's probably a good thing. I should drink less soda. Okay, board game or a puzzle? Puzzle.

Big puzzle. You a big puzzle family or just you? Yeah, I mean, certain members love a puzzle, but I love a puzzle. Yeah, my wife loves a puzzle. Her and her family can get together and just like in silence do this puzzle for hours.

And I'm like falling asleep. I'm like, yeah, you'll wake me up when you've got a few left. And I'll figure it out at that point. Okay, let's move to our rapid fire. So just first one that comes to your mind.

No pressure. There's no right answers here. We won't criticize you for an answer. Okay, great. Okay, favorite Disney movie?

Encanto. So good. Yeah, it's so good. Favorite Disney song? Okay, I heard you asked someone else this so I thought about it and it depends on my mood.

So true. That's a great fair point. Because there's a lot of fun ones, but the Lin-Manuel Miranda will always, any song from him is so good. But the caterpillar one in Encanto. Oh yeah, Dos Oruguitas.

How do you not cry? Oh my goodness. And, but then if you want something that's kind of fun, it's the Hercules one that the muses sing. Oh yeah, the gospel truth. Gladiators.

Yeah, or Zero to Hero. Or gospel truth too. I love that. Zero to Hero. Every time the muses sing.

The muses are great in that show. They're just so good and sassy. They're so fun. I love it. I love the sass from them.

So it just kind of depends on my mood. That's why I've got a good Disney playlist that we listen to. What's your favorite? It could be almost anything. If I had to pick one, it's either Family Madrigal or it's Your Welcome.

Oh yeah. I think Your Welcome was like, I know why they didn't put that one up for being nominated for the Oscar. I know why they didn't. It's How Far I'll Go. I get it.

But that was actually the best song from that movie. And it should, I think they should have put it up and I think it should have won, because it was such, I don't know, such a well crafted song that was so memorable. I mean, cause it's Lin-Manuel Miranda. It's catchy. It was incredible.

Now we don't talk about Bruno's pretty amazing too, but. Yeah, but How Far You'll Go makes me cry sometimes. Or Let It Go, you know, just again. Let It Go is also so good. Did you like Frozen 2?

Cause I loved it. Yeah, but the only disadvantage is my kids were older during the Frozen era. So we didn't get as familiar with those, but they're wonderful. Yeah, whereas like my two girls, my two little girls, when Frozen 2 came out, they were like prime age for it. But I already liked Frozen 1 and then Frozen 2 comes out.

Now I actually might like Frozen 2 more than Frozen 1. That's a hot take everybody. Hot take. It's a hot take. I know it's a few years since that came out, but Frozen 3 is gonna come out.

So we'll see. Yeah, next year I think. They've been recording with Kristen Bell. I saw that post cause she's amazing. Favorite Disney princess, speaking of princesses.

Um, well Mulan is just different. And I love that. I love the ones that are just a little more adventurous. So I love Moana. They don't have to be these perfect girls.

Cause I love, I love maybe a rule, like I said, I love rule breakers. I like admire it so much. Yeah, someone's willing to put themselves out there. Okay, so I'm actually gonna throw in another this or that because it's gonna lead into my next question for the rapid fire. Disneyland or Disney World?

It'll probably always be Disneyland. That's where I grew up going, but I have a real love for Disney World too. Same. Yeah. Same, the nostalgia is unmatched for me in Disneyland.

It just is unmatched. But boy, allow me some Disney World. I know, I'm not gonna say no to it. It's so great, exactly. I will never say no.

Okay, so that being said, favorite ride at Disneyland. Okay, that's hard. Cause my favorite ride is in Disney World, actually. Okay, and what's your favorite ride? Guardians of the Galaxy.

Oh, and EPCOT? And EPCOT. Mm-hmm. It's cause it's just incredible. It's fun every single time, every single time.

And it's so, and I'm older and it's really gentle on, you know, it just puts you into those curves. And just the whole presentation of it where they've infused in the whole story to it and you see things projected. I mean, I don't know, somebody, I was listening to a Disney podcast actually the other day and they were talking about it. I think it cost a billion dollars to build. And I'm like, worth every penny.

Worth every penny. Because I love it. Yeah, but Pirates probably in Disneyland. Pirates, which is so good. Yeah, cars though.

Pirates is one of those classics you have to go with. Pirates. For me, it's Cars at Night. Oh yeah, at night. Cars at Night is like.

It's magic. Yeah, my wife and I both love Cars at Night. Like, we wait intentionally to go on that ride until it's nighttime so we can go on and just like. And walk through the little town. Yep, through Cars Land.

Yeah, such a fun place at night. That's a great place at night. Okay, which Encanto character do you relate to most? Probably Isabel. Okay, totally fair.

Perfectionist. What's your favorite book right now? Oh man, I have so many books I love. That's why I threw in the right now. When I was thinking about myself, I was like, man, of all time, I don't really know that I can answer that question.

But like right now, okay, I probably can come up with one. Well, I do. I like any book. I just love to read so much. But I think the, have you heard of the Emma M.

Lyon books? Those are delightful books. They're like kind of a Pride and Prejudice type language, but funny. Actually, Pride and Prejudice is funny too. But I'm reading a sci-fi book right now that is giving me life.

And I don't know. Is this the one that we talked about before? Dungeon Crawler Carl. Yeah, that has gotta be on my list. I've got to download that notable.

And then you have to tell me what you think. It's on Kindle Unlimited. Yeah, it's on Kindle Unlimited. Yeah, and there are like eight books out. Holy moly.

So you're set. I know, I'm gonna be, because that is the thing. I hate waiting for books to have to come out in a series. I get so impatient with that. And then I gotta go back and reread them.

So the fact there's eight out is perfect, because then I can just dive into them. Sounds amazing. But those are, I'll think back on this and hate this answer so much. But I love every book. I love books a lot.

You just love books. I mean, books are so great. Comfort food. What's your comfort food? I love spaghetti.

Yeah. Good spaghetti is delicious. So good. Dream vacation spot. Europe.

I love, we just went on to the UK. I would, and we spent, I spent several weeks there. And just going all around. Because I love getting to know other cultures, history. I love history.

I don't remember it well, but I love history. Oh, and Europe's a great place for that. Yeah. So probably I would love, you know, a real good, like either France or Italy, just like diving in and spending a few weeks there. And just Spain, I've heard is wonderful.

Yeah. I mean, France, give me a little Paris and I'm there. Cause I would go to Disneyland Paris, 100%. Have you been there? No.

So I've been to Paris, but only for three days. It was kind of a, and I actually felt something there. Like there's a part of me there. I don't know. It's one of those, it's a little cliche, but I felt it there.

I mean, there's a reason why it's so popular because a lot of people feel that way about it. Right? I mean, I'm also a big believer in like the, experiencing the food of the place you go to. Yeah, yeah, me too. And in France, there's almost no better place.

Maybe Italy would be better, but, boy, those are two pretty high on the list. You're gonna find something good around every corner. Yeah. No doubt about it. Okay, so the way that we like to end every episode is our guest giving us three actionable takeaways based on the topic that we were discussing.

Okay. So for you, what are three things that somebody could put into effect in their life today or this week that could help them when it comes to, overcoming fear of failure, working through or past perfectionism, right? Trying to find more self-worth for understanding kind of who they are. Yeah. What would your three actionable takeaways be?

We talked about it one time, but curiosity to me is one of the most important traits that a person can have. And I've really tried to instill that. And so a lot of times when I hear something that I just don't, I instantly put a guard up with, I've learned to say what, I've kind of, I'm checking myself. Like, why do you feel this way? Why do you feel so strongly about this?

And I'll just start to be curious about why I have this guard up. And then just asking questions. We should never be afraid to ask questions, ask why, and figure out why you maybe responded a certain way. Curiosity to me is so good. And that just goes right into a little, like, well, I don't know if it goes into it, but that whole self-abandonment thing too, being true to yourself, because I think if I had shown a little more curiosity in those early years, I would have, instead of conforming and just doing what I thought I was supposed to be doing, why do I feel this way?

And really exploring that whole thing with feeling a little bit stuck, but not understanding why. Thinking this is what you're supposed to be doing, and it's good, and it is, but also why do you feel this way? So that curiosity. Okay. You know?

I love it. So if I can kind of recap to see if I'm getting this correct, because I love this, I would say, as I understand it, this week, if somebody feels like their guard goes up, ask, first be curious. Be curious as to why. Ask questions to figure out why that guard went up, and then maybe be adventurous and try something new to be true to yourself and self-abandon. Yeah.

I think so. Did I get that right? Yeah. Because we all do that. You hear something, maybe it's on social media or a person at work or someone, and you're instantly like, I don't know about that.

I don't think so. But do you really not know? And maybe there's an opportunity to learn from a person and be open to their information. There's a lot. Like, I mean, this can go even into work where maybe you hear some feedback that you don't like, but their reality is their reality, right?

And maybe it's about you. And you have to kind of think to yourself, okay, take a deep breath and listen to the feedback and learn from it. That's why I love the trigger point that you're explaining, which is when your guard goes up. Because I hadn't thought about it through that lens of like, next time my guard goes up, go through this. Hit these things because that's a trigger to say, okay, if my guard's going up, I need to dig in.

I need to be a little more curious or I need to figure this out. I love that. Yeah. It's fantastic. Well, Angie, thank you so much for being on with us today.

We are inspired by you, by your path, by the things that you've overcome and shown, people in general, but certainly women, of stepping into your power and who you are and not being afraid to try something new, learning what your skills are and that you really can do other things and do all the things and find even more happiness in your life. So just such a pleasure visiting with you. Thank you. I enjoyed it too. You got it.

As you leave this conversation, remember that yes, the past can hurt and you can either run from it or you can learn from it. So here's to learning and finding joy in the journey. See you real soon.